
We’re in serious trouble. Many red lights are flashing on the dashboard.
Most people are now aware that something is seriously wrong, and each has their favorite lens through which to view the problems:
- Geopolitical: increasing nuclear war risk, trade wars, genocide.
- Political: polarized angry citizens, unstable governments, panicking/thrashing leaders.
- Economic: end of growth, declining living standards, widening wealth gap, inflation, accelerating unsustainable debt, asset bubbles.
- Environmental: accelerating climate change, species extinction, toxic forever chemicals, plastic waste, sick & dying trees from rising ground level ozone, etc.
- Health: increasing obesity, autism, and chronic diseases, declining lifespans, increasing depression and mental illness.
- Resources: peak food, peak oil, peak minerals, aquifer depletion, etc.
- Energy: reserve depletion, rising extraction costs, falling EROI, export land model, no renewable substitutes for non-renewable fossils, etc.
The common denominator to all of these problems is overshoot.
Very few people are able to see through the lens of overshoot because overshoot is a very unpleasant topic with no painless solutions and no way to avoid its consequences, and because humans evolved to deny unpleasant realities like overshoot.
Grok: Biological overshoot occurs when a population exceeds the carrying capacity of its environment, meaning it consumes resources faster than they can be replenished, leading to ecological imbalance. This is often seen in ecosystems where a species’ population grows beyond what the available resources (e.g., food, water, habitat) can sustainably support.
Causes: Rapid reproduction, lack of predators, abundant resources (temporarily), or human intervention (e.g., removing natural checks).
Consequences: Resource depletion, habitat degradation, population crashes, or ecosystem collapse. For example, a deer population might overshoot due to abundant food, then starve when resources run out.
Quantifying Overshoot: In ecology, overshoot can be measured by comparing population size N to carrying capacity K . If N>K, the system is in overshoot, often leading to a decline until N≤K.
Helpful Responses: Addressing overshoot requires restoring balance between population and resources.
What Should We Do?
I started this un-Denial blog 13 years ago after I became aware of our overshoot predicament, and a plausible theory by Dr. Ajit Varki for why almost no one can see the most important and obvious threat we face.
After a few years of discussing our overshoot issues I got tired of being a pessimist and wrote a prescription for what we should do. I thought it was pretty good at the time and represented a path that might actually help rather than the fantasy solutions with 100% probability of failing being promoted by millions of people with good intentions working on symptoms rather than the core overshoot problem.
My prescription for what we should do was in essence to minimize total suffering for all species by humanely reducing our population as fast as possible, and by planning and managing a controlled economic contraction, rather than allowing nature to force an uncontrolled collapse.
I understood that it would not be possible to implement my prescription unless the majority somehow could be made aware of our overshoot predicament, and this in turn required some method of overriding our genetic tendency to deny unpleasant realities. So I then spent several years promoting Dr. Ajit Varki’s MORT theory in the hope that experts in relevant domains would work discover a method to override MORT.
My efforts were a complete failure. Not only did I not succeed in engaging any brain or behavior experts, I was not even able to recruit any like-minded colleagues in the overshoot space who were also trying to find solutions.
I sadly concluded that it was not possible to override MORT because denial of denial is the strongest form of denial, probably because evolution, for good reasons, ensures that the Maximum Power Principal (MPP) trumps all other behaviors.
What Can We Do?
In recent years the insights of Hideaway on the role of complexity in sustaining our civilization have caused me to question the theoretical feasibility of my or any other prescription.
Hideaway explains that the use of any non-renewable resource degrades the quality of its reserves over time, and this requires increasing complexity to sustain supply of the resource, which requires growing economies and population, which consume more supply, which worsens the reserve quality, which means any civilization dependent on non-renewable resources must grow or it will collapse, which means a hard collapse is unavoidable and no mitigation paths exist.
Hideaway’s probably correct but it’s a tough pill to swallow.
I’m still struggling to accept Hideaway’s conclusion because I can imagine many things we could do to worsen our predicament, like for example starting a nuclear war, or by burning our remaining coal and gas reserves faster by using AI to create more enjoyable porn.
Given that we could do many things to increase the coming suffering, it seems reasonable to assume there must be some things we could do to reduce the coming suffering, which I believe is the only sensible goal left to us.
But what are the things we could do to reduce total suffering for all species?
I would love to see the readers of un-Denial offer their ideas in the comments below. If we get enough good ideas I will collate them into another post with a new prescription representing our collective wisdom.
What Could Someone Do?
I’m a long time follower and admirer of Jack Alpert and have posted some of his best work over the years.
For many years Alpert’s been a lone voice advocating rapid population reduction with the goals of reducing suffering and retaining some of our best accomplishments as the only species with science and advanced technology.
I very much like the goal of retaining some of our best science and technology post-collapse because I have some insight into how rare and precious our accomplishments are likely to be in the universe.
In addition, if you have any doubts about the importance of Alpert’s goal to retain some of the more valuable features of modernity, this video on what life was actually like in ancient Rome will set you straight.
I was pessimistic about the feasibility of Alpert’s plan because it required educating sufficient citizens to vote for population reduction policies and I knew from my MORT observations and failures that his education plan would most certainly fail due to our genetic tendency to deny unpleasant realities.
Nevertheless, I still like Alpert’s plan because setting aside the political feasibility of achieving a quorum, it at least was technically feasible and did not break the laws of physics or deny the reality of non-renewable resources as every other “plan” by every other “expert” does.
There is of course now a new technical feasibility question created by Hideaway’s complexity theory. It may not be possible to retain some of modernity’s most valuable technology without the 8 billion scale of our civilization. Let’s hand wave this away for now because I don’t know the specifics of what Alpert proposes to retain, and we need to think harder about the implications of Hideaway’s complexity theory in the context of a population that falls really fast, perhaps so fast that the requirement for growing complexity to maintain supply no longer applies. Suggest we continue this discussion in the comments below.
I was recently pleased to see a revised plan by Alpert that no longer requires a majority of citizens to vote for population reduction policies.
We are underestimating our predicament and underestimating the behaviors needed to unwind it.
Human civilization maybe sicker than we think. Maybe we should consider stronger medicine.
Abstract:
Consider a line that describes the delivery rate of fossil fuels to civilization. Each higher rate each year supported an ever larger global population with ever grander lifestyles.
Unfortunately, earth’s crustal limitations suggest this rate of energy delivery will decline back to its 1750’s level this century.
Unless energy deliveries from solar, wind, hydro, geo thermal, fission, and fusion can come online and replace lost fossil deliveries, human population and lifestyles will also drop back to the 1750’s levels.
Civilization will experience first scarcity; then conflict; and finally a self-reinforcing feedback loop called a scarcity conflict death spiral which will starve to death or kill in conflict most if the people who live this century.
When the behaviors that prevent this die off cause their own significant injuries the condition is called a predicament because people are injured with or without the prevention behavior.
In the last two minutes of this video I propose a behavior that causes much pain and prevents the injuries during civilization contraction. The video helps the chooser of the potential behavior quantify the injuries on each path.
After you view the video you may have important questions that need answers:
- Why do we have to make the transition in the next 80 years?
- Why can the earth (without fossil fuels) support only 600 million people living like serfs.
- Why does a new civilization that keeps our levels of arts and science support only 50 million people living like moderns?
In this latest plan Alpert proposes that a single expert could engineer a contagious virus to sterilize the human population.
It seems plausible to me that a single scientist with defective denial genes could be found and recruited for this task. People who can see reality are rare but they do exist.
I do have, however, serious doubts about the technical feasibility of engineering a safe and effective sterilization virus given that it’s required to override life’s primary mission, and given that a trillion dollar pharma industry with an army of scientists was unable to engineer or manufacture a safe and effective gene therapy for a virus they created and had the blueprints for.
How is one rogue scientist going to engineer a safe and effective highly contagious virus designed to override the primary objective of DNA honed by 4 billion years of evolution?
Nevertheless, I’m an electrical engineer with limited knowledge of genetic engineering so perhaps Alpert knows something I do not.
What Will We Do?
Our most likely path is the path we are on which is to use every psychological, accounting, and technology trick we can think of to keep growing the size of our economy and the complexity it depends on until we reach the end of the runway and crash with a spectacular collapse of supply chains, complexity, food, and population.
Unfortunately there will be a lot of suffering for humans and other species. The planet and its diversity of life will no doubt recover, but it will never achieve the pinnacle of rare complexity we enjoy today.
As we accelerate down the runway stresses will increase within countries and between countries. You can see these growing stresses everywhere today. There is a high probability that our leaders will do something in desperation that reduces the length of the runway.
It is likely that our most powerful weapons will be used when citizens of a resource unlucky country become envious and angry. As one recent example, a petulant little island nation off the coast of France that is collapsing because its oil and coal reserves are depleted is trying to provoke a nuclear war with a much larger and more powerful country on the opposite side of a large continent because it has some oil and gas that might sustain the lifestyles and entitlements of the island nation a little longer.
There is another darker scenario now being publicly discussed by very competent geopolitical experts like Col. Larry Wilkerson. In this interview last week Wilkerson explained why he is very worried about the growing threat of a nuclear war and that he fears for his grandchildren.
Wilkerson also said he knows powerful people who believe the solution to overpopulation and resource depletion is to kill billions with nuclear weapons. You can listen to these comments at 42:30 but I’d start earlier at around 33:30 for important context.
In this light, Jack Alpert’s sterilization virus starts to look pretty good.
In case you are not aware of it, I recommend the 2013 TV series Utopia which was about a plot to reduce the population with an engineered virus.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/06/18/climate/food-crops-heat-rain
Most of us here on un-denial already knew things like this, but I think collapse awareness is slowly entering the mainstream media.
This is just part of stupid isolated research into one aspect of our situation, that makes it sound so easy to just change one aspect.
The underlying assumption of the report was that everything else other than climate change stays the same. We still have the hybrid seed varieties, the pesticides, fertilizers, irrigation water and all the equipment necessary to operate as we do today, but we will stop using fossil fuels and just have to change to EV type vehicles..
It’s linear, one aspect only type thinking that has led us up the garden path to faster collapse and obviously from this type of reporting will continue in that same direction..
The emphasis is always on we just have to change this one thing, then the future will be bright, yet never bother to mention we need fossil fuels for not just fuel, but all the pesticides, fertilizers and plastics in all the equipment. Somehow this is magically going to continue, while we mine lower grades of ores to build all the Electricity producers, gizmos and batteries.
To me it’s just mainstream does not want to look at the real problem of our horrible level of overshoot and the complexity that this overshoot allowed, which is all leaving us very soon…
I completely agree Stellar. But I’m not so sure it’s correct. I pay attention to this with older comments and it seems that people like me (only a few years of overshoot awareness under their belt) are always claiming that it’s slowly entering the mainstream. The lifers are probably so sick of hearing it.😂
I think Hideaway nailed it with his reply. Sure, mainstream is pumping out more stories than ever about climate change or this or that… but they are most certainly not pumping out stories that tie everything together in a William Rees kind of way.
Happy first day of Summer (or Winter for those down under).
Listening to a lot of smart conflicting opinions on the Iran regime change attempt. NOT ONE has mentioned peaking fracked oil and the end of growth.
I agree. Some few of the pundits understand that the U.S./West seeks hegemony over the resources of Russia/Middle East/Global South and that is the purpose of wars to have regime change. All pundits seem unaware of the real predicaments of overshoot (probably in complete denial).
AJ
The Iraq war was started using a lie to scare citizens when conventional peak oil was in sight and fracking was not yet a thing.
The Iran war was started using a lie to scare citizens when peak fracked oil (and therefore peak everything) is in sight.
MORT prevents most from connecting the dots except a powerful few in the deep state and elite who do not have to stand for election or worry about losing their jobs.
Because the driver is non-renewable scarcity the Iran war will someday be known as the start of World War III, and the last world war.
I predict the US will be the first to use nukes because its privileged lifestyle is not negotiable, and because its citizens are too fat to fight a conventional war.
Very good post today by Mike Stasse. He’s thinking about the same things.
https://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2025/06/20/on-losing-our-collective-minds/
Your last paragraph is what has me most worried. The Fat, lazy, stupid U.S. populace has never had to endure the trials and tribulations of lots of Europeans, Russians, Iranians, Palestinians, Asians, and most of the rest of the world. They will never give up their lazy lifestyles (they’re not even up to the hardships of their grandparent’s (depression era) generation). The nukes will probably fly. 😬
AJ
I did not see the video but I read that in Trump’s recent military parade the troops did not know how to march properly which is the most basic skill.
Trump wanted a military parade for his birthday. Totally not something a wannabe dictator would do…
I watched a bit of both marches, firstly the one in Red Square Moscow from the 25th March (IIRC) then Trump’s troop’s trample…
Totally agree.
Homo Inutilis – useless man. I’m gonna get that phrase to stick eventually.😊
The most pussified and useless generation in the history of not just humans, but all life… that’s what we Empire Babies are. Obviously it’s not our fault… just the name of the game when it comes to maximizing energy consumption.
What’s most impressive to me is how the consequences of maximizing energy consumption all seem to be intersecting simultaneously to create the perfect storm… the perfect mass extinction. Almost like it was meant to be.
I’m with you guys about the high probability of USA going nuclear. Like Rob said a while back, if for no other reason, just so that we as a species never have to face up to the fact that we were wrong about everything.
Pentti Linkola is an interesting figure in deep ecology: Pentti Linkola
I liked that clip. I like anyone from back in the day who somewhat understood what the hell was going on. So I started searching into this guy (just a couple of reddit links). Found this one and was looking forward to being blown away like the title suggests.
Pentti Linkola – The craziest thing you’re gonna read in a long while : r/badphilosophy
LOL, so when does the “craziest thing you’re gonna read” part happen? So far, I’m mostly in alignment with Pentti. I came across a few comments accusing him of being a white supremacist which nullifies everything he ever stood for… LOL, the “woke” crowd sure do stick to their guns with this stuff.
Nordic countries has some figures on deep ecology.
Alf Hornborg is good Technology.
Yesterday was the first day that, by using my smartphone to show a few well-chosen graphs, I actually managed to convince someone of the predicament we all know about here. I’m sure I did, because for the first time my explanations on the subject got someone to look at me, and instead of laughing, shrugging, changing the subject, or any other kind of handwaving, she simply looked at the horizon and said, “I guess you’re right, then…” Afterward, she burst into tears.
That took me by surprise, and I didn’t feel well. In my defense, I’ll say that she was the one who wanted to know more once I started to led her down this rabbit hole. She raised some of the obstacles and objections we’re used to from new “overshoot padawans”… but ultimately, the exponential curves that appear everywhere when you analyze this matter finally convinced her. I could almost see the moment when her inner wall crumbled and the hordes of my arguments took her mind by storm. I recognized a look in her eyes that made it clear there was no going back. Once you grasp this, there is no un-grasping it.
Her tears made me feel terrible. I realized that in the end, we have to choose between telling the truth or allowing people to remain comfortable in their ignorance. We’re at a point where truth and mental comfort are not compatible. She asked me for my opinion on the subject, so I gave it to her. But seeing her cry, I couldn’t help but wonder if I had done the right thing. I still wonder…
A few minutes later, she raised her head to look around, and her gaze resembled Neo’s once he’s able to see the Matrix code. “What about all this…?” she asked, referring to the part of the city that surrounded us, and by extension the entire modern civilization and those who live inside it, I suppose. I shrugged. I had no answer for that. She sighed. “I’m glad I put off having kids…” she said. That sentence made me even more convinced that she had understood. She wiped her tears and smiled, thanking me for sharing this knowledge with her. I think she meant it, but it didn’t made me feel much better…
Do you think I did wrong? What would you have done in my place? Honestly, it saddens me deeply that when a friend asks you about all this, you have to choose between telling her the truth and protecting her peace of mind… but I guess that’s how our world is. 🙁
Personally, I live by the motto “If the truth kills them, let them die”. In my humble opinion, the very categories of “right” and “wrong” are human constructs that are both non-truths in any epistemic sense – if amoralism is the correct ethical theory, then it follows that all human moral systems are just another form of reality denial enabled by MORT.
I would rather look at the practical side of things: do you care about how you feel? If you have a lot of empathy, seeing others suffer will copy/paste those emotions into your brain, so if that is a priority, you might not want to talk about the matter with others. Consider that humans often react with hostility to things that make them feel bad, so even if one lacks empathy, not engaging in truth-telling can have its personal benefits (think of the atheist in medieval times who still pretends to be a theist just to not be burned as a witch on the pyre).
I encourage people to not think in “right/wrong” but just in “action/consequence” and what exactly their own objective in that regard is. If telling people the truth is the objective, then how the truth makes them feel is irrelevant. If the objective is to tell people the truth and make people feel good, then a conflict of the objectives arises because the truth has a tendency to make people feel non-good. There is no rational way to determine which of the objectives is the better one – that’s ultimately down to personal judgement, in my humble opinion.
Cool story Klin.
This is another topic in the doomasphere that seems to be split down the middle. I agree with Anonymous’s motto “If the truth kills them, let them die”. Similar to the wise philosopher Ivan Drago… “if he dies, he dies”.
And think about the worldviews I’m trying to protect by not saying anything… that we are not animals. We are separate & superior. Technology equals progress. Growth is good. Green energy transition is right around the corner. We are the stewards of the planet. etc, etc. And I’m gonna protect this ignorance just so that they can keep living in bliss thinking humans are god’s gift to the universe?… LOL, I don’t think so. I say shatter those worldviews whenever the opportunity presents itself.
It’s bizarre to me that aware people think it’s cruel to tell non aware people about reality. Take my USA hatred for example… If someone is proud to be an american and has that blind loyalty to country and I vehemently try to educate them on why their precious country is the worst thing to have ever happened… people that are in agreement with me have no problem at all with this tactic.
But if I vehemently try to educate someone on how and why their precious civilization is guaranteed to collapse… all of sudden half the people in agreement with me have a problem with this tactic. “Not cool Chris. Why you gotta be so mean.”
I guess I’m still a bit new to all this. I think I’m managing to endure the grief and pain of knowing that many of my dreams and the dreams of those around me will never come true. And even if they had, that would’ve been adding more water to a sinking ship, since even the most simple plans in modern civilization involve a big expenditure of limited energy. But I remember what it was like to learn about all this for the first, and it’s hard for me to be the one that finds himself opening others’ eyes now.
But I agree that if they ask my opinion… I have to give it without lying or sugarcoating the truth. Or at least what I believe to be the truth; we can all be wrong, after all. However, in light of the data and the opinions of many wiser than me (some of whom are on this forum, and whose perspective I greatly respect), I’m afraid there’s unfortunately no room for optimism. The problem is simply too obvious if one refuse to look away from it.
Thanks for sharing your story and the profound question. I still remember the exact moment when I understood the reality and implications of peak oil. I instantly became a different person.
For people I know and that probably do not read un-Denial I usually try to warn about dark clouds on the horizon without elaborating how dark, and try to offer advice on things they might do to buy a little extra comfortable time.
If they ask questions I would be fully honest but they never have with me.
Klin, thanks for your posts on this. I’ve never had the experience of someone breaking out crying when they realised our situation. In the past all I’ve had is people showing denial, including magical thinking of some type of unknown energy source saving us.
In fact every conversation I’ve had in depth with anyone that has denial of collapse has ended up with their magical thinking at the end. Denial is rife.
I do not promote my position on our future to people family or friends) at all these days, unless they ask, or bring up the topic.
However, last year I went to ‘climate talk’ about solutions, and couldn’t help myself when the main speaker started on the ‘electrical future’ of all electric homes, EVs, battery back-ups etc, etc. I killed off the conversation very quickly, with fact after fact that dismissed their happy stance. After the topic was changed and the ‘evening’ was over, a couple of people did talk to me privately about “What’s the answer then?”. When I explained there was no answer, it’s a predicament we are in, they silently left. (It was not a full explanation as it was getting late, in fact the conversation turned to how much insurance rates for housing are in our area, as an example of something unsustainable, but a far more pleasant topic than the end of modernity.)
Surprisingly to me, one very good old friend, who was a University professor of environmental science, that I did have a conversation about modernity soon finishing, actually fully agreed, even bringing up points I’ve known about, before I did in the conversation.
He and his wife never had children. It was a short conversation, as our wives turned up and we immediately turned to talking about their next holiday….
This childless bit also seems to be important. Those with children and/or grand children have way more denial than those who have no children in my experience.
I wouldn’t sugar coat it for anyone either. We are in a civilization that is destroying the natural world around us, that we rely upon, with more civilization, being what every renewable or nuclear advocate opines about, just bringing more of the same until it ends.
I also tend to believe that there will be a tipping point of people’s general understanding, and at a certain point when collapse is earnestly underway, people will suddenly just realise we’ve been correct, without much conversation about it at all.
Thank you, Rob and Hideaway. I didn’t really elaborate too much on the implications of the problem we’re all familiar with, nor was I too explicit about what collapse means for a specific person. It wasn’t necessary. My friend is a smart girl, and it was enough to convince her that collapse is inevitable for her to reach the bottom of the well all by herself. I suppose there are many people like her, which is why their minds prevent them from accepting collapse, because being immediately aware of the consequences is an inevitable process.
I too think having children is a strong mental barrier to dealing with this issue, a big denial booster. I don’t have kids, and neither does my friend. Her relief at not having kids upon learning about all this makes it clear to me it’s one of the first things that comes to mind when one discovers our overshoot reality, and if you have children, probably very strong mental defense mechanisms kick in. The idea of knowing that your little ones are going to have to go through such a terrible scenario without you or them being able to do anything about it is simply too much for a human mind to bear. So it closes off to the idea, and is likely to react defensively or even aggressively if pressed.
From now on, if collapse topic comes up and someone asks me to go deeper into it, probably the first thing I’ll do is ask them “Do you have or plan to have children?” If the answer is no, I’ll get as much into detail as they ask me to. If the answer is yes, I’ll suggest we talk sports instead…
Funny how we feed off of each other, or influence each other, or whatever you wanna call it. Sometimes I’ll be out and about and something will remind me of a comment posted here. I’ve even caught myself at the grocery store looking at canned sardines because of Robs infatuation with them. LOL, but I still haven’t built up the courage to eat them… even though everyone says they taste like canned tuna, which I like.
For some reason this thread or yours has been on my mind for a couple days. Found this link today in Steve Bull’s weekly roundup. I always like stories where the animals talk to each other. It reminded me of you and your friend’s interaction.
The Bull and The Crow – by Frank Moone – Janus
ps. The anti-natalist in me doesn’t like your last paragraph. If they plan to have children then there’s no better time for a scary, yet totally based in reality, collapse sermon… even if unsolicited.
“Big Bull’s heavy voice was showing a bit of anger”
Oh, I know how that sounds now…
The saddest part is my friend was a cow that listened to the crow. And even then, she could do nothing to free herself from the barnyard. Nor could the crow. Our world is even darker than that one…
Thank you for sharing the story, Paqnation. I really enjoyed it. Too bad I can’t fly! If we are the crows, we should at least have that. It would be fun. 😀
I agree with you although I do have 3 children, the youngest being 16. We had kids before becoming fully overshoot and collapse aware. I must have extra strong undenial genes to fully accept that this civilization is terminal.
We share pretty openly with our kids, who all still live at home, about the state of the world and they are very involved in our resilience building (we don’t call it prepping).I think it probably hasn’t hit them completely yet what the future holds and I don’t want to kill off their dreams for their lives. But our openness, our lifestyles and their homeschooling seems to have ensured they don’t have materialistic dreams of great wealth and social status.
We are helping all 3 build their own simple cottages on our land so they all seem content to be setting themselves up for the long-term (however that may play out) living with their mum and dad. As a parent that makes me think we have done alright so far to embrace reality with love and respect for the 3 of them. We also make sure we include their friends, have a good helping of fun and celebrate achievements along the way.
Cheers
I think in your case, you’re doing the best you can given the circumstances we are in. It’s admirable. I hope you all are happy in the years we have left. All members of your family have each other, and that’s a very important thing to find peace for the mind.
https://predicament.substack.com/p/understanding-our-collapsing-world
It is overshoot!
Saludos
el mar
This short article is common sense for un-Denial, but still… it was excellent.
Let’s Be Realistic: Reclaiming Pessimism
ps. I got that link from Jan Bloxham’s newest essay. It’s a long one, but definitely worth checking out.
Collapse – Part 4/5: Bargaining – Grasping at Reality
You guys got me hooked on George. I like his article today with the restaurant angle.
How Humans Invented Waste – The George Tsakraklides View
Rintrah has a good article up on renewables
https://www.rintrah.nl/peak-renewables-in-the-netherlands/
Here you can see the total capacity of wind turbines on land in the Netherlands. In 2024, there was 127 Megawatt of newly installed capacity. This however, is not sufficient to avoid a decline in overall capacity, as wind turbines last for twenty years on average. This means you need to install 5% of your existing capacity every year, just to stay stable. You would need to install 5% of 6.816, that is 340 megawatt, to maintain your existing wind capacity. We installed 127. This means wind energy in the Netherlands is on the retreat.
On sea, the same problem is emerging: It’s just no longer economically viable to build more wind turbines, because they will be competing with existing green energy. One gigawatt costs 400 million dollars to build and generates 300 million worth of electricity.
What’s the problem? Well, the Netherlands has had a record 200 hours of negative electricity prices so far this year, already more than in the entirety of 2024. This means that during those periods, when there is abundant wind and sun, you have to pay to deliver the electricity, which means you never break even. Is solar installation at least continuing? Nope, new installations crashed by 53% in 2024 compared to 2023.
People worry about the “dunkelflaute”, the 13 days every year with insufficient wind and sunlight for a 100% renewable grid. But you’re never going to reach the point where you have to worry about the dunkelflaute, because long before that point, new solar and wind capacity becomes economically unviable to build. Once you reach the point where new installations drop below 5% or so of existing capacity, as we already have with wind on shore, then you are post peak.
What about solar? Well, in 2027, you won’t get paid enough for delivering electricity to the grid anymore. Some Dutch housing corporations have already started removing solar panels from roofs, simply because they turned into a cost for them. Renters are also asking to have the panels removed, simply because they’ll never earn a return on the investment. The panels last pretty long, but the converter only has a life expectancy of 12 years. A lot of people just won’t bother paying for a new converter.
So for the Netherlands, peak solar can not be far ahead, as evidenced by the fact that people are now trying to save money by asking to have the panels removed.
There are no nuclear power plants that are going to save the day either. Nuclear energy is expensive, but this is compensated for by its reliability. However, if you already have solar and wind delivering 50% of electricity at very low prices, it becomes impossible to make money off nuclear power plants, which take at least ten years to construct. It’s like asking someone to sign up to do a job for four hours a week, spread out over four days.
The existing nuclear energy runs into its own problem, which is that it needs a supply of cool fresh water. We just had the driest spring since we began measuring. When the rivers are not carrying enough water, you can’t cool the nuclear power plants, nor can the rivers be used to deliver coal to the coal plants. This has already led to problems in France and Germany.
So where does the peak lie? Out of overall energy use, in 2024 solar amounted to 4.3%. Wind amounted to 6.4%. That’s a total of 10.7%. That’s roughly where the peak in renewable energy is going to lie. Biomass is not truly renewable, but accounts for another 6.7%. It will eventually peak too, in fact, plans are to stop with biomass before 2030.
The government is now asking people on TV, not to use electricity between 4 and 9 PM. This means people now only start charging their electric vehicles after 9PM, when the solar panels are not delivering any electricity at all. It doesn’t matter if you keep installing new solar panels, if people use electricity in the night, it will be mostly fossil electricity.
The Netherlands is the country with the most solar panels per capita, so in the Netherlands you can see in advance what will happen to other countries later on. It’s simply not economically viable, to run a grid on wind and solar. The reason is because storing electricity is just too expensive. We don’t have proper solutions for storing electricity available.
What we should expect, is that electricity just gradually becomes a thing of the past again.
Enjoy your camping trip. I’ve been making the most of the nice winter weather and have gone for a couple of trips myself.
I will be away camping for 1 week starting today with only occasional internet access. Stay well in these crazy times and I hope you’re all still here when I return.
Twitter (X) says that Trump has threatened to Nuke Iran if they close The straits of Hormuz.
So in these waning days of the US empire, will we go out with a bang or will we face the reality that we are losing. In Trump’s senile brain, how will he respond if Russia and China say no, you will not use nukes on Iran? Can the US back down? Perilous days ahead, Good luck to us all.
AJ
I like this new interview about the genocide of gaza. Two of my former favorites, Abby Martin & Peter Joseph. I love her defeated yet passionate rant at 7:15 – 8:16 (video queued up)
I was reminded of Abby’s big documentary about the military which finally comes out this year. Was so excited for this back in 2020. Not so much anymore… I’ve moved on to bigger and better things like fire and blowing up the planet😂😂. But I’m sure her doc will be excellent because she’s really good.
btw, Abby coined the phrase “Empire Babies” back in 2017 or so. Hopefully I’ve never claimed that I made it up.
Hideaway on kicking the can…
Hard to fathom why Iran didn’t have its key people in bunkers. Idiots.
Even more perplexing is did they have their radars turned off, no defensive missiles, no retaliation???
AJ
I used think the Israelis always win their wars because they are so smart. Maybe its because their enemies are so stupid.
On why we are becoming collectively lobotomized (the impact of AI on culture and psychology):
https://tsakraklides.com/2025/05/31/the-pseudoscience-of-economics/
The Pseudoscience of Economics
I like George and I think he understands that full consciousness sapiens have never and will never fit in with the web of life, but what is he talking about here. What is our true purpose? And when were we ever useful to the planet?
This comment from one of his fans does a good job of explaining why full consciousness prevents us from “fitting in”.
Brian Berletic sees through the bullshit of US foreign policy better than anyone.
The US is pretending Israel is acting independently to attack Iran.
If there is a war it will be a US war.
War appears to be what we (U.S) are goin to do in Iran. Alastair Crooke on Judge Nap TODAY said the Steve Witcoff was at a big Wall Street Gala last night (Adelson was there) and he said that Iran having a nuclear program OR large amounts of missiles was an existential threat to Israel and could not be allowed. Alastair said we are going backward in negotiations. He also said the U.S. doesn’t itself have the resources (B-52’s, B-1 bombers, refueling tankers) to take out Iranian nuclear sites (5 or more requiring many strikes each with nuclear weapons or bunker busting bombs) and even that would be inadequate.
Looks like war might be on the near term horizon.
AJ
Which means I think we may see the preemptive use of Israeli nuclear weapons to take out the deep underground Iranian installations.
Then what happens?
I don’t have many things on my bucket list but one of them is to live long enough to see Israel collapse.
A Boeing 787 crashed today.
A couple weeks ago I watched this interesting deep dive into the 787’s technology and I thought to myself the extreme complexity creates a high cumulative probability of something going wrong.
Reminds me of RAID systems used to protect computers from data loss that fail faster than the drive failures they protect against because they are so complex.
We know that when we are dead, we do not exist, thus we cannot suffer. What is ultimately positive about existing? We have a serious bias here! I would like you to take away your emotions and objectively think about it.
Uh oh, you’re poking the bear… I like it! I was hoping you’d get some replies before I butted in, but oh well. I did as you said and stripped away my emotions and objectively thought about what is ultimately positive about existing. I worked all day and night in the lab to come up with the correct answer… Nothing.
I think people mistake what suffering is. Most will say they have experienced more joy than suffering in their lifetime not grasping that the Empire Baby lifestyle they were born into is nothing but suffering. Or at the very least they underestimate the colossal amount of suffering (past, present, future) it took to enable and maintain their current way of life.
Those two lines are from Sam Mitchell. The first one is pretty easy to agree with when taking global industrial civilization into account. But not the second. And that’s the weird part to me because that’s what prevents the 1st quote from happening in the first place (which it will every single time when we are talking about a one-off fire harnessing species).
For most of the people who love life (all life) and have an un-Denial type understanding of the world (that tiny club of 80,000), rooting for human extinction will never be acceptable… even though they damn well know that that would be the best option for all life. Denial and self-preservation outweigh rationality. LOL, captain obvious here. (btw, replace the word “life” in your vocabulary with “the constant pursuit of profit and growth” and it helps… just sayin)
Back to that ridiculous Ligotti idea I was trying to sell a few days ago. Humans today have the technological capabilities to end this never-ending cycle of suffering. This is probably the first and only time in the history of the Milky Way galaxy where life will have this opportunity to turn the tables.
Now of course, it aint gonna happen… and maybe I’m completely wrong about us having the technology to literally blow up the planet… or at least make it so that life will never again “find a way” on this rock. But I can’t help fantasizing that someone in our universe pulled it off. And it has to have been intentional. I’m sure that some civilization out there has blown up their planet accidentally… working on the next big weapon or some massive geoengineering accident… that doesn’t count.😊
Two trillion galaxies. I’ll go with what I think is ultra conservative and say life makes it to fossil energy on one planet for every one million galaxies. That would give us two million fossil fuel peaks. Surely one of them was able to break the mighty cycle of denial and go all the way with it and successfully end the constant pursuit of profit and growth in their galaxy forever.
80,000…LOL, I wish!! My tiny club is closer to 80.
Kabul at risk of becoming first modern city to run out of water, report warns
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/07/kabul-could-become-first-modern-city-to-run-out-of-water-report-warns
I have also heard similar stories about Cape Town (which came dangerously close to running out of water in 2018), Mexico City and Bogotá. A major city will run out of water in the not so distant future. It is just a matter of when.
WE ARE BEING AMUSED AND ABUSED TO DEATH – The Burning Platform
(h/t Crazy Eddy) This essay was fun. Completely blind to overshoot & energy, but still fun. I like this part best:
And here’s the energy blindness. Keep in mind, he’s talking about what might happen after financial, social and political collapse:
Dont worry Mr author. That vision will never prevail… unless there are uncharted islands and we end up discovering another New World’s worth of resources.😉
Hi Rob, I think when you discuss making things better you need to be more specific. Better for who? Over what time period? Humanity isn’t a monolith. Countries aren’t even monoliths. Was Globalization good for every American? Absolutely not. For some Americans though it was great. Some measures can make things better over the short run for some people, or increase the likelihood of human survival as a species over a certain period of time. Things like nuclear non-proliferation or reduction, Ozone depleting chemicals being phased out, etc etc. The problem is that with most major issues things are without question going in the wrong direction, and there’s a very good reason for that. I can show you with one simple question- Is it wrong for a father to want a better life for his son? I don’t think anyone would dispute that. The issue is when every father wants each of their sons to be better off, you end up hitting resource constraints after a few generations. Well, here we are.
I guess I just don’t buy any of this “we’re all in this together” stuff. On one level it’s true, if humanity collectively destroys the Ozone layer or creates a nuclear winter, we are, in fact, all in (deep s*)it together. But try getting poor rural farmers in Uganda to not buy a tractor because of climate change and see how far that gets you. Try getting a country to purposely contract its economy over the long term while its neighbors build up strength. Eventually there will be pushback or the country will just get invaded. No civilization in history has ever avoided collapse. In fact, from what I can tell no civilization has even been able to control collapse. We’re 50 years past the Club of Rome saying the ride’s going to come to an end in the mid 2000’s and I honestly can’t point to very many things that humanity has done to even slow down the destruction of the environment. To be honest the two best things that humanity has done to restrain our collective impact on the environment have been not nuking the planet into a pile of ash, stopping the use of CFCs, and providing women with education and more economic opportunities. Those are things that are (relatively) easy to pitch to the population. Substitute a refrigerant/hairspray chemical for alternatives, don’t nuke each other, and give your daughter the choice to have fewer children (which if the data is to be believed they usually take). Outside of that, resource use, pollution, carbon emissions, consumption, you name it, they’ve all grown exponentially. The tough to sell stuff like purposely reducing your personal or your nation’s collective wealth by reducing consumption just isn’t going to be an easy sell, and even if it sells some places, it won’t sell everywhere. If we’ve learned one thing from history, it’s that the countries that were unable or unwilling to industrialize were dominated by those that were. I don’t see how that pattern would change in a de-growth scenario.
correction- three*** best things things humanity has done to restrain our collective impact on the environment.
I’d also like to point out just how fringe our thinking is. I love coming to this website because everyone is collapse aware. NOBODY in my social or professional life is, or if they are then it’s only at the most superficial level and they carry on with their day
Thanks Felix, I’ll second that, we are indeed a fringe group in our thinking.
In the past I’ve talked to a good friend about our predicament, after he raised the topic. In the end when I’d torpedoed all his denial thinking, he came up with the concept that we ‘could’ discover a new, unknown, type of energy that solves all the energy problems.
New type of energy as in not fossil fuels, not solar, not wind, not fission, not fusion, something not yet discovered…
We can’t argue against that because it’s not even close to logical, it’s in the realm of magical thinking, like religion (yet this person agrees all religions are bunk), yet he still has denial thinking but doesn’t realise it.
Denial of a bad future is the default setting, which means that no matter how far we fall in the early stages of collapse, most people will not believe that it was an inevitable process, and will want to blame someone else, or some other group, which will just make the decline worse/faster, as some groups try to take what others have.
Ya belief in the techno-utopian future is strong, in fact it’s the default faith these days because people need to think that things will get better for themselves and their kids. If there’s a problem, the default is for people to just believe “someone will think of something” and go about their day. Honestly I can understand why they think that. It truly is impressive how successful technology and science have been in delivering a safer and more comfortable life for people in developed countries, and it’s been happening for several generations so it’s just an article of faith at this point.
I don’t just see denial in the “faith based” solutions though. There’s a massive dose of denial in how these issues even get framed in the first place. The limits to the debate are how do we either improve the current set of living arrangements, or at least fix the issues caused by it while maintaining its function. Electric cars are a great example. Rather than admitting that cars as a concept are horribly inefficient modes of transportation and a massive drain on global resources, we’ll instead just change their propulsion mechanism. When you narrow your thinking to just “fossil fuels are the problem”, electric cars are an obvious solution. When you consider the issue holistically however, you realize just how bad things really are. What I find genuinely sad and frustrating is that even the people who want to do the right thing are horribly misguided. There’s no money or fame in breaking it to people that the modern way of life is going away, but there is a lot of money in selling them the idea that everything can go on as it always has if they just change the the products they use to maintain their present lifestyles.
Exactly how fringe do you think it is here?
I think it’s reasonable to say 99.999% of the population do not think like us. That would put our group at 80k.
LOL, and I thought the rich were heavily outnumbered at 100 to one. No wonder my doomer supremacism is so hardcore. The clueless fucking morons outnumber us 100,000 to one.😂
“Power’s a big club, and you ain’t in it.” – George Carlin
“Awareness is a tiny club, and you don’t want to be in it.” – Rob
LOL!! So true
Simon Michaux was sold on some sort of quantum vibration energy Nichola Tesla speculated about but he hasn’t mention it in a while. Even the best of us slip into denial once in a while.
We may have to stop using CFCs as a rare example of a success at solving an environmental problem without us having to give up any comforts.
In the book on the history of refrigeration I just finished (review above) the author claims we’ve now learned that the replacement for CFCs are major contributors to climate change. I did not verify but she sounded pretty confident.
Also, the damage we did to the ozone layer has not yet healed, and there’s still illegal use of CFC’s.
well shoot…
Rob, but wait, there is more…
I was told by a refrigeration mechanic, when repairing the old coolroom compressor/condenser a dozen years ago, that the ‘new’ refrigerants used, are not as good as the old CFC ones, and make the equipment last nowhere near as long.
Our old coolroom motor was over a decade old when we purchased it, and lasted us another 30 years with a couple of fan replacements. I’ve been told by everyone in the industry that any new motor will not last anywhere near that long.
There was a good reason why CFCs were used in the first place and not the ‘replacements’ we use now which have all been known about for many decades. It also shows why industry was so happy to go along with replacing CFCs as it meant more sales and business over time for their shorter lasting product.
Try and get an agreement of changing some other gases that are causing damage like CO2 or Methane where there is no substitute beneficial to the industry….
Just looked it up, to refresh the memory. CFCs were compatible with some mineral oils that helped internal lubrication whereas the ‘newer’ refrigerants, HCFs known about since 1946 only operate with different esters that reduce internal lubrication of the compressor, hence a shorter life. Great for everyone in the refrigeration business to implement new products that last nowhere near as long as the old ones…
The older I get the more skeptical I get about every ‘new’, fantastic addition, to our modern world that is sold as being positive..
One trick they’ve recently used to squeeze a little more efficiency from cooling compressors is to use synchronous 3-phase motors which are the most energy efficient type of motor.
The power in our homes is single phase which requires the fridge to have power electronics for rectifying the power to DC and then inverters to convert it to 3-phase. I expect a microcomputer is also required because they vary the frequency to change the motor rotation speed to squeeze a little more efficiency.
Inverters use power capacitors which have a limited lifetime. Plus the cumulated technology complexity also increases the probability of failure.
Sometimes a little inefficiency is a wise tradeoff for increased reliability.
I bet we could have achieved even more efficiency by not using the 3-phase motors and banning all designs except the top freezer/bottom fridge single door old style of refrigerator.
But that would have inconvenienced us so we didn’t do it.
Ditto on the lifetime of freezers I believe because they can no longer afford to use copper tubing and have substituted plastic.
Figures that there was more to that story. I don’t know whether to find it funny or sad that if the profit margins on CFC refrigerators were higher then we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation right now
I liked your comment. Thank you.
When assets become liabilities, the incentive to continue to grow (and invade your neighbour) lessens dramatically.
That’s how I think, choosing to degrow might turn out into an advantage.
That is true in France, where we are way past the point were development is beneficial for the majority. Concrete examples: there are increasing pushbacks against one more highway, one more airport. Also, people who own land or houses sometimes decide to give them up when they understand it’s more maintenance costs and taxes than any potential future revenues (especially in a falling market).
I know many people deciding to work less or being paid less, because the hassle is not worth it. And many people who decide not to have children, or delay child bearing.
I hope I was somewhat clear: what I mean is that aiming for degrowth, rather than growth, is going to be increasingly the smart thing to do. At all levels.
It might have been James Howard Kunstler that said “collapse early and avoid the rush”. I’ve been trying to follow that advice.
I think on an individual level that’s about all you can do. Just look at your society at how people who are in poverty live, and that’s what your life will be like (in all the ways that matter) in 20-30 years. If you told someone in the 1990s in America that average apartment rents in major metropolitan areas were 60-70% of the median income and that 30-40% of adults under 30 are living at home with their parents they wouldn’t have believed you, but here we are. I don’t think we’re going to go back to hand tools overnight, it’ll take a while for things to play out, and getting used to “being poor” will soften the blow.
This warning yesterday by Tulsi Gabbard about the risk of nuclear war is very strange.
If she was genuinely worried, why didn’t she thwart the plan to attack Russia’s nuclear bombers?
Maybe she’s saying “the threat of a nuclear Iran is so great that we must use nukes to prevent them from having nukes”?
Something’s going on.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/war-brewing-us-prepares-departure-all-nonessential-staff-iraq-kuwait-bahrain-embassies
Hoorah!
Sickening. Might as well have squeezed Pat Tillman into that recruitment ad.
LOL, I was so sure that I’d be entertained at watching the Titanic go down. Clips like this remind me that I most certainly will not.
[…] What Should / Can / Could / Will We Do? […]
Mid-term report card:
The last two are good things.
Actually Greenland should belong to the Greenlanders.
I used to believe Canada was a good country. Then we saluted Fauci’s evil orders, and now we support the Gaza genocide. I don’t care what happens to us any more.
The US is doing both of those things as well. So Canada is not any worse than the US (which admittedly is a low bar).
The Last Days of Gaza
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-last-days-of-gaza
I haven’t liked SNL for years, but they still pump out a funny skit every now and then.
Feels like un-Denial could do a good, long sketch in this style about overshoot and denial. I’ll start. If you want to play along, feel free to add anything.
“I have a dream. We will build a new world that finally makes sense. One where we reward corporations for poisoning our water, soil, and air.
We will create things out of precious resources and make it so they intentionally break down after a short while. And we will ensure that you cannot fix it yourself or use spare parts. You’ll have to throw it in the ocean and buy a new one.
And when we die, we will not be thrown directly into the dirt like our peasant ancestors. We will fill our body up with toxic embalming chemicals and be placed in a metal box, and put that metal box inside a cement box, where we can rest peacefully knowing that the savage critters cannot munch on our precious rotting carcass.”
Every adult will have an equal vote to select their government, however we will agree to never discuss or vote on anything that actually matters.
The science will be whatever we say it is. It is safe and effective. Trust the science….
Art Berman today with his take on complexity.
https://www.artberman.com/blog/the-complexity-trap-abundance-ai-and-the-fallacy-of-misplaced-concreteness/
I tried several years ago to get Dr. Ajit Varki and Dr. Tom Murphy talking about MORT so Murphy might incorporate it into his efforts to find a solution. Varki was unfortunately too busy with his day job at the time to engage, and Murphy does not think MORT is valid or relevant to our overshoot predicament.
I had an email exchange with Varki yesterday. He has engaged with Murphy but I think it unlikely anything will come of the discussion.
Dr. Tom Murphy today on food making babies…
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2025/06/food-makes-babies/
Fast Eddy has decided prepping is a waste of time and is using his remaining resources to enjoy life while things are still good.
https://fasteddynz.substack.com/p/take-the-fast-eddy-challenge
Hi Rob, once again you and the members of the Undenial Enlightenment have nailed the pertinent aspects of WASF!
I too have reached the point of acceptance that nothing can be done, despite years of prepping under the delusion that I might help younger generations transition to past lifeways. My sense is that something like Dunbar’s Number would be required to function in a early agricultural setting, and even then with an aim of adopting a nomadic existence long term.
Alas, my final solution is to self-terminate when the time comes as peacefully as possible- I’m thinking morphine as a reasonable option.
Like others have expressed, I too have encountered a NDE, and it was blissful. Even though I sensed third party communication to bring me back, I suspect a biochemical causation, especially in light of youthful experimentation with LSD, mushrooms, etc.
I am thankful for overcoming the anxiety of mortality, as this allows a clearer contemplation of the “spot of bother” awaiting us on the near horizon.
Like you and others, I can’t help but speculate on our journey to this point. My guess is that fire was the cheat code that brought our ancestors through the near extinction bottleneck, and abandonment of nomadic furnished the nails in our collective coffins.
Looking ahead, I see voluntary austerity as the only responsible measure we can take, even if it is too little, too late. That said, here are my favorite technological guilty pleasures:
I have always been a believer that humans can exist in primitive conditions, conceding that quality of life might border on “…nasty, short and brutish”. Brings to mind one of my favorite concepts – Pick two: Good, Fast, Cheap!
Nothing new here, just hope I can offer company to the long suffering!
Thanks for stopping by with a great comment.
An NDE, a belief that fire is where it all went wrong, good drugs back in the day, and self-termination when the time comes… Is this my long-lost twin?😊
I didn’t want to scare you off right away with my curiousness. I’ll try to keep it toned down. If you don’t want to share, no worries.
How long do you think the blissfulness lasted? I was alone so I have no witnesses to ask. Could have been an hour or a couple seconds, I’ll never know.
Was the third party, paramedics or just the people around you? I almost want to get a tattoo with big letters DNR on my chest for this very reason.
Did you receive some type of message about why it’s not your time to go yet? If yes, what was it.
Do you still believe everything about your NDE?
The coolest thing or biggest benefit to having an NDE is the fear of death factor. Prior to mine I was scared shitless. Not of actually dying, but the pain and suffering that was sure to be involved. After the NDE, instantly I no longer feared any aspect of death…. And even though I don’t believe the woo woo part anymore, I still have no fear.
Hey there, thanks for your feedback.
As far as the NDE, I too instantly lost all fear of dying. Now that I have seen my Father and Father In Law pass this year from Dementia complications, I actually welcome the prospect of mingling my atoms among the chaos. Rationally, I realize my best years are behind me, and do fear becoming a burden to my family as decrepitude takes it’s toll. Hence, the euthanasia attraction.
The NDE third party was a disembodied voice in my head, telling me “…it’s not time for you to go…if you don’t wake up, you can’t go back”. All the time, I floated toward the purist white light that immersed my being in unimaginable peace.
There was an exhilarating sense of floating out of my body toward the light. I was reluctant to re-enter my body, but as I did, I awakened from a deep sleep.
I was really freaked out by this at age 15, and undertook a lot of reflection, which led me down rabbit holes like this one.
My experiments with mind altering drugs came close to some of the NDE sense of “knowing” – the absolute certainty of security. I think the natural setting of the outdoors definitely contributed to the feelings of “flow”, especially in/around water.
I’ve tried to explain the idea of Knowing vs. Believing as a sort of ironclad confidence without fear, rather than wishful thinking.
The LSD connected me to “Knowing”, during white water rafting, rock climbing, and kayak surfing. I wouldn’t suggest any of these in altered states!
Sorry for the long digression, but it seemed like you might be sympathetic.
As for spirituality, I lean toward non-deity philosophies, like Taoism.
I love the concept that our ancestors feared angry sky gods filling the heavens with comet strikes around the early State level society formations- see Gobekli Tepe in Turkey.
I’ve enjoyed reading your past comments here, and I think you may have referenced an INTJ bias on this site. Maybe that’s a pre-requisite for faulty denial genes?
Ah, very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I wrote a detailed account of mine a couple days after it happened. I don’t like reading it anymore (doesn’t make me angry, more like frustrated) but your line about “the purist white light that immersed my being in unimaginable peace”, made me take a peek.
LOL, me and you probably saw the same thing.
I have many gripes about the style in which evolution created us… for example the nerves in our teeth, I mean c’mon! no reason for that cruel joke… But to pump us up full of DMT at the very end so that we’re actually on a good acid trip at the endpoint… well that’s a beautiful thing and by far outweighs any of my gripes.
Your relation of the ecstasy is captivating, and causes me deep reflection as well.
Imagine what some animistic people might have wondered upon hearing such accounts. Not hard to see the formation of “just so” stories explaining the wonders of their world.
I share your frustration with our designed obsolescence. When we started walking upright, we really shortened the functionality of our vertebral column.
Seems like we are constantly faced with challenges to acceptance of all sorts of unpleasantly!
Brings me back to your thought on the light – is a deathbed vision a feature or a bug?
I lean toward the “bug” explanation. Probably just processing fault code as systems start shutting down.
In keeping with the life after death theme, in this case fruit and veg cells post-harvest, I finished the book Frostbite while strimming the blueberry weeds at the farm today.
Refrigeration solved many problems, but as with all of our technologies, created many new problems.
The book gave me a deeper appreciation of the global cold supply chain that keeps my local Costco full of food.
I enjoyed the book and recommend it but do not consider it a must read.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/199514774-frostbite
Nice post from Preston above. I’m not replying to it because this is gonna be long and I don’t want to clog his post up with my bullshit.
And I know from experience that this is a very touchy subject for the people who have experienced it… so just know this is only my opinion… even though I do really know it all.😊
I shared some of my NDE details on this site last year. https://un-denial.com/2024/04/09/radical-reality-by-hideaway-and-radical-acceptance-by-b/#comment-96627
A few months ago I wrote a follow up story about it. I wanted Rob to put it up as a featured essay, but he had no interest (LOL, I still think he made a mistake passing on it). So I figured I’d save it for my youtube channel. But Preston got me back in the mood today. And since the youtube thing isn’t coming along as smoothly as I hoped (Gee, who would’ve thunk that me ranting and raving for twenty minutes on video is not very compelling or entertaining) … I’ll share the story here instead.
_______________________________________________________________________
There was a good thread few days ago about “who is your god?”. Thermodynamics was the answer I liked best. Got me thinking about my own god transitions. If you’ve been on un-Denial since Jan 2024 then you’ve seen me flip flop all over the place on this topic. From Mother Earth to energy constraints to EROEI to MPP to fire. I’ve had a lot of gods since I got here. This audience is super nice. Nobody ever called me out about it. I would’ve called me out by now. “C’mon man! Pick a god and stick with it you fair weather fan” LOL
My very first encounter with god came during my life changing near death experience (NDE) on Jan 21st, 2022. Prior to that night I had never been religious. The NDE instantly injected three things into me: A belief that Mother Earth was god. An interconnected awareness that couldn’t be explained, just knew that everything is connected. And an unbreakable confidence that there is something after death so no reason to fear it.
A few days after the NDE, I found Michael Dowd and was off and running in my overshoot journey. And then eventually Nate Hagens. Couple years with those guys as my two main sources and every step of the way confirmed the authenticity of the NDE. With their spiritual stuff as well as most of the interviews about trees, soil, mycorrhiza, mycelium, etc… the message was loud and clear: My NDE had put me on the correct path of Mother Earth being god and the interconnectedness thing. I was all in! I even had delusions at certain points that I was spared and “sent back” so that I could be an important player in the human consciousness revolution. Dead serious. “Paqnation, you’re the one” LOL.
Wish I could have stayed in that Daniel Quinn zone where humans are not the problem, our culture is. Most of the people I was following in the doomasphere were stuck there. Lot of conclusions from 50 plus years ago still being treated as the gospel. Nobody pushing the envelope. Guess I started getting too curious for my own good. Was exploring new sources. Eventually I found un-Denial (thanks to Erik Michaels… ironically)
Rob had started my slow shift away from god being mother earth with his “breaking through energy constraints” language. Hideaway eventually got me laser focused on EROEI. While at the same time my knowledge and acceptance of the MPP was growing. Somehow all of that eventually pushed me towards homing in on fire. Seems easy and obvious, but it took strict denial control. The denial control comes from this site and the religion of MORT. Rob is as important to my journey as Dowd was. (but Hagens can go fuck himself… totally kidding. I only give Nate a hard time because he’s so stuck. I actually like him a lot).
But ya, I was obsessed with MORT for a while. Eventually toned it down to more of just a 24/7 awareness of denial. I don’t care if Varki’s theory is correct or not. In fact, I don’t even refer to it as MORT anymore. Full consciousness works better (IMHO). The important thing that MORT gave me was the awareness factor which led to my denial control. (also, an understanding of why nobody else can see this shit)
So back to the NDE and those three things that were injected in me…Mother Earth being god is dead. The interconnectedness thing is still going on, but it’s not the same. Instead of that romanticized Cloud Atlas vibe, it’s more in line with Hideaway’s logic… like me getting a good deal on that 55-inch smart tv for $199 is only possible because of the colossal amount of interconnectedness created by a global industrial six-continent supply chain with eight billion domesticated consumption machines.
Which brings me to the third and final item, the unbreakable confidence that there is something after death… This was the tough one. Lot of denial here. Early in my research of NDE’s, Rick Strassman’s name kept coming up. As soon as I saw what he was proposing (NDE’s are just some type of internal drug reaction brought on by vital organs working overtime), I dismissed it and intentionally avoided anything to do with him.
Trying DMT has been on my bucket list for a long time. Was never able to get my hands on it. About a year ago I came close to getting some, so to start preparing for it I watched a bunch of videos of people sharing their recreational DMT experience. Some of the details were insanely similar to my NDE. The spiritual stuff is pretty much identical, but it’s the geometry details that makes it a slam dunk. So that started giving me some serious doubts.
A few months after that, I posted some details of my NDE on Sam Mitchell’s channel because others were talking about theirs. Leave it to Sam to crush those dreams, LOL. He was delicate about it. He recommended I read Strassman’s book DMT: The Spirit Molecule. I took Sam’s advice as a sign from god. Just kidding. I told my denial to fuck off and finally faced my fear by jumping into Strassman’s work.
It soon became obvious that Rick is correct about my experience just being an endogenous DMT reaction created by the pineal gland, brought on because of near-death like symptoms. Although, it looks like the pineal gland being the source is now under heavy debate. Who gives a shit! Came from something in the brain, that’s all I need to know. Also explains why 90% of all NDE’s are identical… a bright light, the appearance of a dead relative, and a message that you have more work to do in this world. (recreational dmt trips are usually much different. I’m only talking about nde trips)
Rick and a lot of the DMT community give an opening for me to keep the NDE fairytale alive. They believe DMT somehow allows us to reach new heights and dimensions. With our brains acting as antennas or receptors to the outer limits and blah blah blah… Ya, it just doesn’t work when you have a certain amount of knowledge of energy, space, reality, etc. It’s just an insanely intense psychedelic drug trip. Nothing more, nothing less.
DMT is no longer on my bucket list. Its either gonna kill me or be a really bad trip because I’ll know that shit aint real so I’ll be fighting it the whole time… or maybe it overpowers me and zaps me back to the Daniel Quinn zone. Which sounds good, but I’ll end up having to go through the process of beating the hopium out of me again… no thanks.
I wrote this a couple days after my NDE – Does this mean it was real? Or does it mean that when the body is close to death and working in overdrive, the brain is having all types of chemical reactions, and the person is just having an acid like trip and channeling everything we think we know about death?
And that was before I had ever heard of Rick Strassman. My intuition was correct. Wish I would’ve had my denial control back then. Might have even prevented me from becoming a doomer. But instead, I got swept away into the abyss. The NDE created a wickedly desperate hunger for meaning. There’s an old saying, “there are no atheists in foxholes”. Definitely some truth there, but way more accurate is “there are no atheists after an NDE”. Prior to mine I believed life was just some random accident and there is no higher power. Almost four years later and I’ve basically come full circle. But now there’s much less guesswork going on.
So when you’re finally on your deathbed and you start to see that big bright light coming at you… brace yourself for the dead people that are about to show up (communication will be done telepathically). And when you get that beautiful overwhelming sense of peace & love with no ego at all… absolutely go with the flow… but just know that it’s all from the DMT that’s dripping into your brain at that very moment… and it will be all over very shortly… unless you’re one of the unlucky ones that gets sent back to this hellhole called life.😉
That was an awesome read! I read a NDE where a child was drowning, and an angel scoop them up and told them it wasn’t time to go. Very cute story and I noted it lacked the common themes like the bright light. You reminded me of this line from Shrek haha

That’s a very good essay Chris.
This was the first time I read it so your comment that I rejected it made me wonder if I have early onset Alzheimer’s and I went back through my email and see that you sent it but I never replied.
My apologies. I don’t have a good reason for why it got buried with no reply. I can be bad with email because 99% of what I get is junk mail and so important stuff I procrastinate gets buried. Or maybe I read the first sentence, got squeamish, and put it away to be finished when I was in a better frame of mind and then forgot. Don’t know, sorry.
If I had read it in full my initial reaction would have been squeamishness but the ending restored my comfort level and I would have been pleased to publish it as a post.
The bright light on my death bed is going to tell me I should have been more forgiving. I’ll feel very bad for a few moments and then I’ll go to sleep forever.
Thanks Rob.
Funny, I had two split reactions. Happy, a relief that you didn’t reject it… and irritation at my lack of self-confidence.
And dont worry, it’s such a powerful drug, you won’t be capable of feeling anything but love and forgiveness in those last moments.
ps. You might’ve just unleashed in me the annoying guy who reaches out every other day to ask “You get that thing I sentcha?” LOL. Don’t get annoyed when it happens is all I’m sayin.😊
pss. If anyone wants to bash Rick Strassman (he does seem weird), I’m all for it. Like the X-Files, I want to believe!!
DMT scared the shit out of me. I totally thought I was dying when I took it, I will never go near it again. It was not at all pleasant for me. I am pretty much done with all psychedelics.
Preston MPP Howard here to thank everyone for their contributions in response to Rob’s terrific essay, “What Should / Can / Could / Will We Do?”
I see Humanity on a bus heading for a cliff with no one in the driver seat, able to turn us away from disaster. Most folk are seated and looking down at whatever is on their tiny screens. All of you — and other un-deniers like us — are looking out the bus windows, on the one hand trying to get someone to take corrective action, and on the other hand trying to minimize the effect of the crash on ourselves. The wider world around us may not appreciate un-denial.com, but I sure appreciate what Rob has assembled for us to share.
Hideaway ends a great 8-Jun-2025 complexity discussion with these words: “There is just no way out!!”
Okay, everyone! Just for a few minutes — please turn off your Baloney Detectors, and follow me down this very different, very strange, Rabbit Hole.
Dutch cardiologist, Pim van Lommel, MD, spent a lifetime studying cardiac patients who had near-death experiences (NDEs) as a result of heart attacks while in the hospital. About 20 percent of cardiac patients report NDEs in Dr Lommel’s Dutch data. Those who report having had an NDE generally indicate no fear of their future passing because they understand at a higher level. (Remember, you’ve temporarily disabled your BS detectors!)
Dr van Lommel’s research was published by Lancet, and this 1-hour interview is eye-opening. Here’s the link:
Hideaway is correct that Humanity has no way out.
However, I’m asking folk who believe our passing from this existence is the end to please keep an open mind about Dr Lommel’s (and others’) research suggesting that consciousness survives the physical body. I had out-of-body experiences during training and research at the Monroe Institute outside Charlottesville, Virginia. Like Dr van Lommel’s NDEs, I do not fear my passing. I understand.
Just as each person understands sex more completely when they have their first real, tip-of-your-nose-to-tip-of-your-toes climax (a moment most of us still recall vividly), so also for those who have an NDE or out-of-body experience. I know this is a big ask to suggest you should keep an open mind about this, but Dr Lommel is not alone in his study of this subject.
I cannot do more than touch on the subject here, as it is so far afield from most un-denial comment. Whether or not you accept as possible what I say, if I am correct your consciousness will survive just like everyone else’s. You can now turn on your BS detectors, as we continue to help Hideaway find a way out of this mess.
Thankyou Preston, I wish it wasn’t so but ‘No way out’ is our situation that 99.99999% of humanity will completely deny, because it’s unacceptable to their psyche..
On your second point, about NDEs and suspending the BS detector..
Firstly I do believe and understand people have such experiences, a very good friend of mine did have one around when he was revived from being clinically dead, during/after an operation. He had to be revived twice.
However just because people have these experiences, and we can’t explain them, does not mean that the conscious mind lives on outside the body.
I notice that the Dr Lommel’s research has ruled out anoxia, then a whole lot of other ‘reasons’ to come to his conclusions. Anoxia by itself or partial anoxia does not explain anything, but as per usual medical science looks a things in isolation, as it’s too complex to consider a range of variations together. Can he rule out partial anoxia with high or low blood sugar levels along with higher glutamine levels, low dopamine levels, and high serotonin levels?? Or some other combination including various enzyme and hormonal levels? Did they do widespread checks on all these or only anoxia levels (or whatever else they did check)?
It’s really easy for us humans to reach for simple conclusions, which is where religion/spirituality fit in, instead of researching something thoroughly before coming to conclusions. Doctors are just as guilty as everyone else in jumping to conclusions.
Back in the 17th century bloodletting was the answer for lots of ailments, while in the 1950’s smoking Camel cigarettes was good for health. Going back just 15 or so years, my mother in law’s ‘specialists’ all had to get together, 5 of them!!) in a meeting to discuss her conditions/medications. Most were horrified what others had prescribed, as it was worsening her condition in their ‘area of concern’.
We humans compartmentalize so much and come to conclusions based on ‘expertise’ within a compartmentalized area, when the truth is a highly complex interaction of many moving parts. There is no evidence whatsoever that everything ‘spiritual’ that has been experienced by people is not anything other than a combination of chemicals that somehow (we don’t understand), make a person still receive information from around them when not conscious or even clinically dead.
Remember the cells are all still alive until they die due to lack of oxygen/nutrients/Atp, or too many wastes that poison them. How long does it take for the ‘ear’ or kidneys to ‘die’ after the body is proclaimed dead. A functioning kidney could not be taken out of one person, kept on ice for hours and transferred into someone else and still function if it ‘dies’ when the original patient was declared dead…
For all we know, accepting information, sound etc, might be the default condition, with sleep and/or unconsciousness being the body’s deliberate shutting out of stimuli, so the body can repair, with the NDEs being a failure of the default condition from kicking in..
I’m officially a sceptic….
But then, in some instances, people could later describe the scene of their “death”, as if they were experimenting it from some place above. So, you would have to explain that. As well as the cases where they are visiting distant locations. Etc…
Rather, than showing life after death, maybe these experiences (as well as many other in different domains) hint that the source of consciousness is not the brain. The brain may rather be a filter or an anthena of something that is not bounded by space nor time. (and that death is an illusion in the same sense that separation, the sense of self, is an illusion)
I don’t think this is “reaching for a simple conclusion” to hypothesize that consciousness may not be material but primordial. It’s time for science to study these phenomenons, and it may lead to a new copernican revolution, or reinforce the materialist viewpoint (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism_controversy). Or maybe, there is just a limit to what can be said about reality. But just rejecting the evidences because of bias or fixed preconceived ideas is not growing the understanding of these phenomena.
Charles,
“So, you would have to explain that”
No I wouldn’t. It’s the people making extraordinary claims that need to provide the evidence, not those that are skeptical about all of it.
Has anyone that was proclaimed brain dead, by total lack of brain activity ever had a NDE when resuscitated? Answer is no because no-one has ever come back from being clinically brain dead.
We all dream, sometimes very lucidly, other times we don’t remember much about them. When people are in altered conscious states due to extreme changes in brain chemistry around the time of an NDE, while the brain is still alive, all sorts of strange chemical changes can and should be expected to happen, with all the accompanying effects of these changes on the brain and it’s activities.
Medically speaking we already know that all sorts of drugs have profound, hallucinogenic effects on the brain, so why wouldn’t natural chemicals in the body under highly stressful conditions not cause similar types of outcomes, as in dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin, adrenaline, cortisol, GABA, noradrenaline, glutamate and endorphins that could be spiking high and low all over the place during an NDE??
Can you provide any evidence that NDEs are not just elevated dream like states enhanced by the people’s own senses still being active and alive during the experience with the subconscious transferring to the conscious because of elevated and/or low combinations of all the natural human substances mentioned above?
Would like Anesthesiologist’s and Gaia’s take on all this…
I see. 🙂
Hi Charles. Even though I no longer believe that mine was real… there is still one kind that will always mess with my head.
Back when I was researching NDE’s my favorite ones were the rare, out of body experiences that had an absolute unexplainable element to them. I wish I would’ve had one of these. Just making this up because I can’t remember exact details, but they always went something like this – a patient goes in for surgery and while she is under anesthesia and getting operated on, the doctor puts his eyeglasses away into some random drawer and eventually forgets where he put them.
The patient eventually wakes up from surgery. Dr is telling the patient and her family how everything was successful. Dr mentions that he lost his eyeglasses and the patient perks up and says, “you put them in that drawer over there”. Dr is amazed to see that the patient is correct. He asks, “how the hell could you have known that? I put them in there halfway through your surgery while you were out cold.” Patient says she not only saw him put them in there, but that she watched the entire surgery from above… and sometimes the details get even crazier. Dr asks “when did I put them in the drawer?” Patient says, right after you pulled out my kidney (or whatever). Dr goes to the video of the procedure and verifies patient is correct…. and sometimes it gets even crazier, like the drawer is not visible from where the patient laying, or not even in the same room, so even if she had been awake for the whole operation there is no way she could have known where he put his glasses.
Rick Strassman’s endogenous DMT from the pineal gland theory does not work to explain away this type of NDE. Humans are full of shit is all I can come up with. LOL
But if you are the person who had that particular experience there is no way in hell that anyone could ever talk you out of it not being the real deal. Heck, even the doctor has to start believing.😊
Hi Preston,
Thank you for posting this here. Echoes my comment up there.
That’s remote viewing, out of body, life after death, life before death, prayer healing, a saint and a miracle healer. These are just examples. There is also levitation, teleportation of small objects, vision without eyes, communication with the dead, telepathy, precognition, capacity to locate missing people.
And other, I am forgetting.
Believes who wishes to. Deciding not to believe probably leads to never experiencing any of this. Which is fine.
If any of these capacities naturally comes to you, it’s all good. They are usually a consequence of a purification process or appear out of necessity (there is also the belief that they are related to only some lineages). But trying to acquire them actively is problematic (like any quest for power) and leads to damning consequences (pacts with demonic entities and such).
At least, that’s my limited understanding. I restrained talking about any of this up till now. I really don’t know if this should be mainstream, or if it is better that those who have the need, find them by themselves. Also, as many of these phenomenas have not been accepted, they are talked about in ancient terminology. Maybe, it would be a good thing for mainstream science to accept to study them and build a modern terminology. There is much charlatanism.
For those interested in death, there is scientific work studying the phenomenon known as Tukdam, a meditative state reached after clinical death, during which the body decomposition stops https://centerhealthyminds.org/science/studies/the-field-study-of-long-term-meditation-practitioners.
Hi Preston,
Thank you for this video. I just finished watching it now.
Dr. van Lommel and the interviewer seemed to be really nice persons. And so do you 🙂
Did anyone hear about the protests in Los Angeles?
I’ve been scanning the headlines but have no insight into what is actually happening and why. I see the usual divisive US politics with one side saying the riots are caused by bad policies, the other saying the riots have been intentionally fomented, and nobody saying the cause is falling standards of living due to overshoot.
Dear Rob, Hideaway,
Lately, the more I read this blog, especially your comments, the more I think this is just unnecessary self-inflicted suffering.
I so wished I could open a door in your minds to the other facets of reality (99% of reality, really). But I can’t (I tried). So I think, I’ll have to let you find for yourself.
There is more I would like to tell you both. But I don’t know how to do it without generating petty mental resistance. So, I guess, I’ll just have more deep thoughts (prayers) for you. Especially Hideaway.
Anyway, thank you very much for your writings. I guess, some of us, like myself, have to drain the cup of bitterness, before starting to live in earnest. So thank you for repeatedly serving this beverage.
I have a belief: we tend to become what we repeatedly do. Worry every day, live in fear of what’s to come. What kind of person makes that of us? How are we behaving for the ones just around us? Is this the life we wish to live in this incarnation? But anyway, even me saying that may generate more unnecessary mental turmoil in you. And that’s not what I want. And that’s OK, I guess that’s what your path involves.
So, let me just try to express how much any single moment of this experience is so beautiful. I wished I could share. Let the thoughts rest. They are unnecessary. Life is simple. If you can, if you want, open up, love.
🙂
Hi Charles,
Thank you for your many interesting contributions to un-Denial and your attempt to help me and others here view the future in a more positive light.
I’ve never been totally sure if you expect a different better future, or if you embrace the same future with a more positive attitude. I suppose it doesn’t really matter because you seem at peace and happy.
You may feel like a Sensei that has failed to enlighten a student. Don’t worry. I’m just not a spiritual person, and I’m probably not as unhappy as you may think I am. I have achieved some peace by being reasonably prepared for intermittent storms, my health is good, I get a lot of pleasure from simple things like cooking a good meal, and I have some hobbies that I enjoy and permit me to switch off my overshoot mind.
I would like to be a better person, especially in the areas of forgiveness and procrastination, but they’re not overshoot issues, and have been character flaws my entire life.
I hope your small scale farming adventures are going well and your health is good.
Dear Rob,
Thank you for your extremely kind answer.
It’s not really that I feel like a Sensei who failed. It’s rather that I am now out of hell and I would so much like to share this state of mind with fellows who seemingly have to carry the same kind of cross.
In a way, it feels silly for me now, to have worried so much about these things for almost a quarter of a century.
Ah ah ah. This plays on three levels.
First, no, I don’t expect a different future, in that material affluence will erode very quickly. But, I expect it will turn out astonishingly fine, in that it will rather be both a revelation and a renewal. I may be wrong. And that’s fine.
Second, I don’t believe the mainstream model of reality anymore. There are too many serious accounts about “strange” things. And I have myself witnessed events which I wouldn’t have believed just a few years ago. So, everything goes.
It’s impossible to correctly put into words the last point. The first two aspects are only artifical structures stemming out of mental proxies. All is experienced inside. The quality of this experience, the flow. I don’t know how to put it. You know, some people, they have this glow in the eyes. Or to give another example: the neighbor just one floor below had a baby a bit prematurely, she went up yesterday to show him to us. He was sleeping in her arms. Suddenly we all felt at peace. And the mother was full of love, with an ounce of pride (just the right amount).
Now, living that every moment, for different reasons, that are always present, even during “hardships”, just removes worries about the future.
Best.
Charles, I’ve just let this sit for a day or 2.
Now I’m questioning it?
Charles ….
“Worry every day, live in fear of what’s to come“
Is that what you think I/we do??
I’m in a place of acceptance and embrace the world we live in and enjoy what I can of people, life and the environment I live in.
I don’t discuss our predicament with family and friends unless they bring up the topic. They mostly know my views and so we talk/discuss every day issues about current life, laugh, joke, sing, watch trashy TV shows and movies, go places, do activities etc. My wife and I recently went to New Guinea, burning lots of fossil fuels in the process..
If anything my knowledge/research of what will happen in the future, physically speaking about the process of civilization, which includes it’s demise, has allowed me to think and act a lot more in the present. Going back a decade or 2 when I was still trying to work out where and how civilization was going to get to wherever in the future was a lot more traumatic with longer term decision making.
Now I realise it doesn’t matter. There is no purpose or meaning to life or the universe, it just all exists. In the long term there is no future, so enjoying life in the present is most important..
” I guess, some of us, like myself, have to drain the cup of bitterness, before starting to live in earnest.“
The future is not a cup of bitterness, it just is, and will happen no matter what you, me or anyone else does or thinks about it.
We are all a part of the system of civilization, whether we like it or not. We all have to play along with the rest of the system no matter where it heads. We have to pay taxes, we have to pay to the system to be part of it. We have to obey the laws of the land. None of us can have a free life living a ‘natural’ lifestyle, where we live wherever we want, and eat whatever we want without paying for it, with money, which is what the system has deemed we need to pay with.
Am I sad about the conclusion to the current system of civilization coming in the future, yes sure, but why be bitter about a certainty?? It is what it is…
Really like to hear from Gaia about this, however she seems to have gone AWOL for a while…
Hi Hideaway,
Thank you for your answer.
That’s part of it. But yes, you are right, I didn’t nail it exactly right. There is something else, even more compelling.
Know that you matter.
Best.
The last post by Gaia was April 21 offering you an idea on how to structure your book.
I have no new information but she may have some heavy family and relocation pressures right now.
https://un-denial.com/2025/04/10/by-gaia-gardener-on-growing-coffee/#comment-111823
It could help going back to hunther/gatherer with som Knepp style rewilding. https://knepp.co.uk/rewilding/
Sorry for the late reply, I have been quite busy the last few days.
A few Ideas.
Slow down population growth. One silver lining is that most industrialized countries have sub-replacement fertility.
Try to restore as many ecosystems as possible. Some Rewilding will be helpful for our descendants.
If a soft landing is impossible, we should encourage people to spend less time at work and just spend as much time as they can with friends and family, because in a few decades, what you will have done at work will be irrelevant.
If/when the hard collapse starts, allow people to “exit on their own terms”.
I will add more ideas to this if I think of some.
In the what can be done, there is this:
Forgot to say: that, together with the fertility rates of South Korea (https://datacommons.org/place/country/KOR?category=Demographics).
And then, you have your best case scenario.
(from the atheist, materialistic standpoint, which is only part of the picture, or rather a way of framing it, if you ask me… See Ingo Swann, Robert Monroe, Raymond Moody, Ian Stevenson, Bruno Groening, Padre Pio, Nizier Anthelme Philippe…)
This, we are experiencing, is so full of possibilities… There is no limit to progression/discovering, if that’s what you like.
I’ve been studything this issue for something like 16 years now, and I’m no longer worried by it.
The key to this understanding: none of this is actually necessary. Not people, not cars, not planes, not computers, not the internet, not tv, not movies, not gaming. None of it. It’s necessarily for employment, sure, but those people can just become agricultural serfs if they want to live.
Ok, ok, I know what all of your responses will be. Peak oil, eroei, net export decline, overshoot, complexity, diminishing marginal returns of investment, inequality, war, starvation, human psychology, etc. Yes, I’ve read all of it and more.
It just doesn’t amount to much in the final analysis. Every single one of you, and myself, is mortal, no matter what resources there are or aren’t. We are just now being reintroduced to that, a simple truth that everyone before us understood until the 1970s or thereabouts.
We are returning to the past, returning to nature. Embrace it.
Nice comment.
But I don’t understand this – We are just now being reintroduced to that, a simple truth that everyone before us understood until the 1970s or thereabouts.
I’m probably overanalyzing here but prior to the 70’s what exactly did everyone understand?
Stories! We need stories. We’ve got a lot of TV, a lot of movies, a lot of gaming… but I think we’ve lost the stories lately.
Air, food and water, shelter, and friends to share a good story. That’s my Maslow Pyramid.
Yes 🙂
I watched a couple of great episodes from the new season of Black Mirror last night. If you’ve never heard of it, it’s basically a modern version of The Twilight Zone.
The episode ‘Eulogy’ might be my new favorite episode from any tv show ever! Probably an overreaction that will die down eventually. Paul Giamatti was excellent like always. I’m a sucker for stories about regret, especially when it involves “the one that got away”.
The other episode was ‘Common People’.
This one had me laughing about my euthanasia plan… and how capitalism would totally embrace it. The basic package would consist of one lethal injection in a tiny room by yourself. And then there would be a million upgrades available for those who could afford it. Basic plus (you can have one friend or family member in the room with you so you’re not alone when you die), Premium, Premium Plus, Gold, Gold plus, VIP Platinum, VIP Platinum Plus, etc, etc, etc.
Is it just me or do most tv shows and movies made these days just feel so fake or perhaps hyper real and therefore not very connecting or engaging. It tends to leave me detached. The story writing in general too I find is pathetic.
Nope, it’s not you at all… Everything made today sucks and feels fake because it’s being created by people that suck and are fake as hell. Always a few exceptions of course, but the digital age and idiocracy have destroyed us.
The easiest way to see it is to watch an older movie and then immediately follow it up with today’s reboot or sequel. Ghostbusters, Top Gun, Beetlejuice, Beverly Hills Cop, etc. There was a wild wild west aspect to movies back in the day. They would try anything. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not. But at least it was daring and creative. These days it’s just a formulaic, paint by numbers shitshow with no risk whatsoever.
And the saturation of it is insane. There’s 10,000 streaming services and they all have their own original programming. The exponential growth of actors, shows, movies in the last 25 years would be interesting to look at.
Agree. I’ve been collecting movies from the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s of late.
Dude! This is so true. People always go on about how bad Twilight is. But I re-watched it recently for the first time in maybe 15 years. I couldn’t believe how good it was, like miles above most modern movies. And people still complain about it for being a bad movie. I want to scream at them, “re watch it, it’s so much better than you remember”.
No you’re right they’re worse. I went to a college that cranks out a lot of film people. Some of them are genuine (think editors, set design people etc) but most of them, especially the ones that do the more “glamourous” jobs like acting, directing, and writing are all nepo-babies or just really good at creating a personal brand and worming their way into positions of relative power. Some of them are smart, some aren’t so I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily an intelligence thing. What I would say is it has a lot more to do with the types of people and their life experiences. Living in LA is so expensive that to work in film until you’re old enough to succeed you either need to be poor and crazy enough to accept the 99.9% chance of failure, or rich enough to not care. Look at writers, directors, and actors bios and you’ll see they fall into one of those two camps with rare exception.
There’s other factors too. Making movies for international markets means dumbing them down to the lowest common denominator, and streaming services basically assume at this point that their viewers aren’t even watching the show/movie because they’re doing other stuff in the background, so they just want to crank out as much slop as possible targeted at highly researched niche demographics.
Another thing I’ve noticed is that movies no longer have a narrative structure where you have scenes that build on one another, showing the emotional states of the characters before, during, and after an event, as well as providing reasons and character motivations for why an action is done. Think of the Godfather when Michael shoots the police chief and rival gang member in the restaurant. We’re given clear character motivations, the gravity of doing these actions is clearly explained, and we see how these actions impact him and others. Now films have more of a “saga” structure where its just one event after another without much depth or weight shown through the dialogue. It’s actually a more primitive mode of story telling, like Beowulf or something. Think of the movie American Sniper where it just shows different scenes from the guy’s life without a set-up and payoff structure. If you want a more direct comparison, think of Star Wars. In the original movies, I at least understood why Luke was doing what he was doing, and understood his emotional reactions to events. In the most recent ones I can’t even tell you what the plot is because it’s such a convoluted mess, let alone why any of the characters would feel anything about what’s happening because there’s no dialogue where they discuss their feelings or the gravity of the situation they’re in. It’s just one event after another, with no character development. Beowulf didn’t need character development either, he was already a hero. He just did cool stuff like John Wick. End of story.
Excellent observations.
Thanks, I’ll try Eulogy. I watched season 1 a long time ago and quit because I thought season 2 went downhill.
Ya, overall I don’t recommend Black Mirror. It’s not that great. Tries way too hard to be mind-blowing.
Of the 33 total episodes, I’ve seen about half. And of those I’d recommend 4 or 5 at the most. Old school Twilight Zone is much better.
I added the complete Twilight Zone to my library a few weeks ago.
A neurosurgeon who has become a collapseologist on youtube. Thought is was interesting.
Subscribed. Thanks for the tip.
I feel so bad for young people.
About the necessity to continue the aerosol masking effect under the belief that it is the only possibility left concerning increasing temperatures, you could point him to the biotic regulation: https://bioticregulation.substack.com/p/natural-ecosystems-and-climate-stabilization.
I think we are so totally screwed. I liked the Deep Green Resistance solution the best. Total fast collapse of the system, focussing on critical infrastructure. Because the sooner it is done, the better off everyone will be [except for all the civilised humans maybe].
If some smart people had crashed the system 100 years ago, or 50 years ago, think how much more of the natural world there would be left today.
Future humans will depend on nature – so preserving as much nature as possible is the most important thing. IDGAF about lots of human inventions and art or science – whatever, I want old growth trees, rivers i can drink from, and fish to eat. Future humans are not going to give a shit about antibiotics, fridges, or that people went to the moon LOL – they are going to hate us for destroying everything that feeds us.
There’s a whole book on it – one of my favourites:
https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/deep-green-resistance-9781583229293
And my only caveat to that would have been if countries were responsibly decommissioning their nuclear. But they are not doing that. They are storing the waste in fucking stupid places. They are under-funding storage and decommissioning. So no reason to keep industrial civilization going. Chernobyl now seems to be an eerie omen from the great mother that even a blimmin nuclear disaster is still better for nature than industrial civilized humans. LOL LOL LOL Rob you got me ranting!
Christ, everybody’s coming out of the closet today.
I had this mental image of you being a zen-ish gardener, not a raving angry eco-terrorist. 🙂
I’m just a sad YUPPIE really
As fast collapse has the one major problem of spent reactor fuel not being kept cool. If it is not kept in water till it is cool enough to encase in cement then it will catch fire and burn releasing copious amounts of radioactive particles into the atmosphere. It would be very bad.
nikoB ….Only one major problem??
I can think of a few others like all the trees that will be cut down in people’s attempt to stay warm, plus every animal within shooting distance will be considered food for starving masses as they flee the cities…
I’m fairly sure a local self appointed warlord will throw some minions into getting some ‘volunteers’ to dump the contents of spent nuclear plants into the sea; problem solved… Oh wait… never mind.
Perhaps life in the oceans will evolve rather quickly in the next few millions of years…
In the long term scheme of things, if life has no meaning or purpose overall, then extra mutations after a mass extinction event could be regarded as ‘good’ for life overall.
You maybe right about someone moving the spent rods into the sea, it is all hypothetical till it happens. And yes you are correct about everything else getting consumed / devoured in this collapse. But that is the way of things. Everything collapses eventually I guess. I won’t be around to gather the empirical data on the end of the universe. Though I hear that there is a restaurant there.
I don’t think they manage to cut down all the trees. Some places yes, but most people don’t have the strength or tools to do that.
Thanks for stopping by Jack.
I’m confused about the purpose of the meeting you propose.
It would be helpful if you could let us know which pieces of the puzzle you think you already have good answers for, and which pieces you want to collaborate on solving.
For example:
Thanks for presenting your views of my work to your group. What you have presented is quiet accurate. The reservations from Hideaway and paqnation are well founded.
I want to expand the discussion to make temporal dimensions explicit.
I don’t expect the public to understand or change their behavior any more than I expect the lion not to each his last gazelle for lunch or the deer not to eat the last lichen.
But that does not prevent us from understanding
That is
Perception of future abstractions (not experienced) can
This kind of thinking has already shown us that
I would like to propose
I visualize the meeting as a debugging of three ideas (4 if people want to go there)
Jack Alpert PhD Director:
Stanford Knowledge Integration Laboratory http://www.skil.org
(C) 913 708 2554
jackalpert@me.com
600 word summary of Jack’s work
https://www.evernote.com/l/AAmZY0Hicy9KbLmuRpZRVAjtdR3UQC_bhEE
Jack, just wondering if you come from a behavioral science background and not a physical science background, as your ‘answer’ seems to be all about behavior (yes I’ve watched lots of your videos), while missing the aspects about ore grades, machinery required for low grade, deep in the ground extraction that enabled the current civilization, and ignoring entropy and dissipation of exiting metals and minerals that makes any type of circular economy only a short term exercise at best.
Any type of civilization based on anything other than renewable resources has no long term future.
Studying history, we see that civilizations develop, grow, then ultimately collapse, with some people’s repeating the pattern over and over, all during a stable climate period. How could any civilization exist outside the stable climate period, which is the only period we know of, where agriculture was possible?
How is any agriculture non injury?? We humans kill off all the native species of plants we can’t eat, or our domesticated animals can’t eat, to grow what we humans want, then keep out/kill any type of animal that wants to eat what we grow. This is all injurious to other life forms.
I do admire you for at least attempting to come up with a plan for the future, but would warn against any suggestion of releasing any virus as it’s easy to get on certain lists from government agencies that really don’t understand our predicament..
Oops, ‘exiting metals’ was meant to be existing metals, though exiting is also realistic!!!
Thank you Rob, Hideaway, George,
Where I am comming from? And where I am going?
The short answer to both questions is this 4 page Time Blind 5 book series introduction
Books 1,3,4, and 5 are already available at amazon)
Book two “the path forward” is within a few weeks of delivery. At 250 pages and many QR codes pointing to sections of SKIL videos for clarity, it’s still just a launch platform for the proposed discussions.
Think of the discussion as — civilization is an organism on earth ship. Earth’s stores are almost gone. But we have some deliveries for 80 Years. That maybe long enough to let all the living 8 billion to die of old age.
The project is to build and stock lifeboats for 50 million replacements. They will have most of our present arts and science. And an energy source good until 2400.
The meeting’s first challenge is to design the infrastructure and operating rules of the life boats that carries humankind through Catton’s bottleneck.
Hopefully by then the cognition designed and implemented (books 3,4 and 5 will replace the imbbeded MPP as the dominant operating paradigm.
The second challenge is to imagine and assist an 80 year transition. For both the exiting group and the life boat boarders. (They are genetically but not familially related)
The RPD caused by universal sterility is an event outside of the planning meeting. That process is self directed. I assume it has a high probability of proceeding without help or successful opposition.
Aanyone interested In this form of discussion?
Jack
Speaking as one who has already “stopped caring what reality is and decided to simply enjoy my brief ride”, I feel there really is only one sane response to our global ecological overshoot. Well, at least at this late stage. If the world had listened and seriously acted on the Limits to Growth report when it was first published over 50 years ago there were many, MANY more sane responses still available that would have been relatively painless.
Now? Not so much. Too many people have done far too much damage, and no small part of that damage has yet to be felt by the population due to feedback delays measured in years, if not decades. Our old planet is gone, long gone, and the new one is already looking pretty inhospitable.
So, what can we do? The answer is simple, really. And no, it does not involve murdering billions of people (against their will) because some folks seem to think they are smarter than everyone else.
The answer is total non-violent, non-participation. In the long and inspiring tradition of non-violent civil disobedience we simply invite the world to follow our example and sit down, right where they are, and engage in a hunger strike to the death. There can be only one demand: Everyone in the world must stop burning. Immediately. No exceptions.
Yes, you will starve to death. Guess what? That’s probably going to happen anyway.
If we had acted as the Club of Rome advised in 1972 I wonder if it would have made any difference given that civilization at that time was totally dependent on non-renewable resources?
There were fewer of us and we were travelling slower on a longer runway, but it still had a finite length.
I’m not sure of the answer but I expect Hideaway will be by soon to depress us.
Rob, again you summed it up perfectly, if we had taken longer to use up resources, then yes we would have reached the same destination.
Mind you it may not have been much later at all as we would not have reached the level of technology we have today with a limited population, so the resources available to us probably would not have been mined without the level of complexity we’ve collectively attained.
Modern civilization has always been totally dependent on non renewable resources, but so were ancient civilizations that relied upon them. No matter where civilization started, it relied upon agriculture to feed the population of the city/cities, which relied upon a flow of cheap easy to obtain metals and minerals.
These non renewable resources became harder to obtain because we use the highest grade and cheapest to extract resources first, then it requires more energy and materials to keep the flow constant as the grade falls, the resources get deeper and on average further away.
It’s a hard concept to get people to understand, but any civilization based upon non renewable resources must eventually fail due to the physical laws of entropy and dissipation.
Now if anyone can answer how we can have a civilization based upon only renewables resources like plants, animals, water and ‘rocks’, then I’m all ears.
Dennis and Donella Meadows were pretty bright scientists with high integrity. I’ve listened to many excellent talks by Dennis in which he laments our lost opportunity to constrain growth after their report warned us about the consequences of overshoot.
It’s been a while since I listed to this excellent history of the Club of Rome project but they definitely did not point of that the conclusions were bunk, yet they tried to show that the pro-growth critics were wrong.
How is it possible that both pro-growth and pro-sustainability people missed your complexity theory?
Could you be wrong?
Maybe we’ve found more compelling evidence that MORT is true?
“Could you be wrong?”
I wish I was..
I’ve probably spent more time studying civilization over the last 15 years than anyone else, as I’ve had a lot of time to do it, plus I’ve had the power of the internet to read research papers that would have taken people prior to the internet age a lot longer to find and read.
I’ve also been studying the entire problem/predicament we’re in since 1975, 50 years now, and made a lot of life decisions based on what I had found.
I called it problem/predicament above because for most of those 50 years of research I spent time trying to resolve the ‘problem’. It’s only been in the last few years that I’ve worked out mathematically that it’s a predicament, due to simple physical laws..
My real moment of enlightenment came when I worked out my own method of EROEI for all sources of modernity’s energy gathering machines. I shocked myself when I found that nuclear power is a net energy sink when the full energy costs of it’s production are taken into account Likewise for ‘renewables’ when intermittency is accounted for.
All of a sudden when I worked out we are in a predicament, a lot of other aspects of our knowledge fell into place, like the answer to Fermi’s paradox, that the same type of constraint had to happen to every civilization, as it always had in the past. I read everything I could find from anthropologists about prior civilizations and found the authors always missed the physical constraints of more energy being used in gaining resources, as they were behavioralists, with some mentioning declining grades of ores, or drought/climate change, but not following through on implications.
Some of the earliest settlements/civilizations didn’t use metals, but were limited in size to up to 10,000 or so people, probably because that’s as far as civilization could go without the use of metal tools and implements, but what we refer to as civilization with cities and huge specialization, even in ancient times, is only possible with the use of metals.
It’s all about non renewable resources that are vital to civilization. Is it possible to have a civilization, which means cities that have specialization of tasks, without the use of metals? Can we till fields for growing grain without any metals? Can enough agricultural product be taken to cities without any use of metals? Can all the specialization within cities operate without metals? Historically, we didn’t have cities, only large towns, now that we’ve degraded everything??
Understanding that metals return to their natural state over time and get distributed over the land in tiny amounts by human activities over time, means that to maintain any civilization there is a requirement to spend more energy, on average every year, in obtaining the metals in a useable form.
This requirement to spend an exponentially growing amount of energy on gaining the required metals for any civilization, means that the civilization itself must keep growing forever, which is impossible on a finite planet.
All the rest about increasing complexity of our civilization, efficiency gains, the stable climate enabling agriculture, are just peripheral issues of how long a civilization can last.
I’m more critical of The Limits to Growth these days because of the mistakes in their logic. ‘Resources’ are not just one category, as there are huge quantities of every mineral and metal on planet Earth, we’ve only scratched to surface for any of them. It’s the energy and machines required to gain access to these metals and minerals that’s the important part of the equation.
With unlimited cheap/free energy we could mine all the copper, tin, lead, zinc, iron, nickel, manganese, etc, etc from basalt and granite in the parts per million range, so none of them would be in short supply for thousands of years with increasing technology/machines up to a diminishing point.
Without the cheap/free energy we need to mine the highest possible grades, to allow enough energy for the rest of civilization, so we can increase the technology of our machines that allows for lower ore grades, deeper mines, harder ore indexes, smaller grain sizes, more remote locations to be accessed.
——
I use to be a slow degrowth type person, if we do A, B, C etc to reduce population. Yet the more I researched what constraints of energy means in the feedback loops of what happens in our economic system, the more I’ve worked out how gaining access to all the minerals, metals, food, water etc, also get rapidly constrained, leading to feedback loops that limit the production of the machines and parts we need to keep industrialization going, which leads to greater constraint of collecting everything we require to survive in the modern world, because of the lower grades of everything and the complexity we totally rely upon to gain access to it all..
Every time I look into details of anyone’s ‘answers’, whether it be in regards to a hydrogen economy, renewables economy, SMR (Small Modular Reactor) economy, slow controlled degrowth, regenerative agriculture economy, they all run into huge hurdles that are always just handwaved away.
A simple example, mining in a fossil fuel free world, powered by solar wind and batteries. Ask where the xanthates will come from and there will be blank silence.. What are xanthates?? They are the chemical reagents required to make the metals and minerals float in the floatation method of concentrating most sulphide metals (meaning 90% of copper for example). Xanthates are a mixture of an alcohol group and carbon disulphide (C2S). Where do we get carbon and sulphur from? Fossil fuels…. Or the hydrogen economy, that would require huge quantities of Molybdenum, as it’s what used in the high level stainless steels required to reduce embrittlement and escape of hydrogen from all the piping used. Molybdenum is mined in the Parts Per Million range (50-150ppm), often as a byproduct from copper mining. What percentage of molybdenum is needed in the stainless steel pipes 2%-5% or in ppm terms 20,000-50,000 PPM.
These are the same copper mines that rely upon xanthates from fossil fuels, which we are going to get a lot more molybdenum and copper from, for the hydrogen economy based on no fossil fuels… anyone see any problems from the complexity loop we have become stuck in??
Every ‘expert’ I come across gets stuck in their area, without seeing the complexity of the entire totally interrelated system we’ve created and become accustomed to, usually with assumptions of changing one or 2 aspects of modernity greatly, while the rest of the system behaves normally, which is not how complex systems work at all.
Goddamn Hideaway!! 50 years? You got me beat by 46.😊
I once said that your story would be nowhere near as good as it is now if you hadn’t found un-Denial which enabled you to have the denial control that’s required to venture this deep into the doomasphere… LOL, please call me out next time I say something that stupid.
Great comments lately. You’re on another one of those hot streaks. Wanted to address something you said earlier:
I’m reading this a certain way and I’m just curious. The overshoot journey is filled with denial every step of the way. Most people can get through the bulk of it, but only a tiny few make it to the end.
And the end for me looks like this – Yes, life is for living and gotta make the best of it while you’re here and all that… but life is not precious, or a gift. Overall, much more suffering than joy. A survival of the fittest, never-ending rat race for profit and growth… and all by design. Thomas Ligotti has an answer for this. I’m gonna put it in my own words to spell it out better:
If there was an actual chance of that becoming a reality, would you be in favor of it?
Excellent Hideaway!
You’ve been hiding some depth from us. Now I get your nickname.
I’m going to convert this post into an essay and publish it separately. If you want to do more work on it first send me an email, otherwise I’ll do my best on a few edits, probably with some commentary on how it is amazing that EVERY SINGLE GREAT MIND in the overshoot space has missed the most important overshoot insight: Meadows, Rees, Catton, Hanson, Murphy, Jancovici, Tverberg, Friedemann, Watkins, Hagens, Martenson, Hall, Garrett, Korowicz, Chefurka, Heinberg, Tainter, Zawacki, Alpert, Bradford, Foss, etc., etc..
I’m thinking there is no way to interpret this other than as another stellar example of MORT’s validity.
Let me know if you have a different interpretation for why all the great minds missed it.
Rob, I agree with Monk about Alice F. she definitely gets it. I suspect most of the others do as well, yet fail to mention it as it would reduce their audience.
Nate Hagens let slip that his Great Simplification meant collapse in the last Frankly, no 98, at the 16m 50s mark, where he talks about the importance of joy and play…
I agree that the public persona they mostly project is one of hope if we do this, that and something else, so it’s not denial per se, but more about trying to get more people thinking/involved with the topic, without scaring them away, as the audience most likely has fast denial of the bad outcome.
I’m not sure I agree with you and Monk.
I do agree many people like Alice and Nate get the energy problem and the requirement to simplify or collapse and reduce population.
That’s different from your message which is that any dependence on any non-renewable resource will collapse and therefore the only possible destination is hunter-gatherer because agriculture is not possible without metals.
Animal farming is possible.
Cows , sheep, etc…
Fishing..
Rob, there a lots of bits I like to expand on in that post, and as we have a new post from you up anyway, which i think is really good and has great discussion going, give me a week or 2 to make additions.
Also, I’m having issues with charging my laptop, have made running repairs several times, which only last a short wile, getting shorter and I can’t buy the very specialist replacement part necessary. It’s been out of stock for 3 months, which only adds to my frustration and understanding about the complexity of our modern world…
Sounds good, I’ll be mostly offline next week camping.
One of your best distillations of the complexity trap, Hideaway. I agree that with a bit of polish, would make a good post here. I guess all the years of trying to get through to the group at POB has sharpened your message, even if it didn’t get through to some.
Systems thinking has been a thing for a while now, no way many others haven’t figured out the complexity dilemma, so either they’ve thrown up their hands, or they have some sort of Elysium plan (destined to fail) or it’s just Rob’s denial.
I think I see a path for continued human civilization, but it won’t be techno industrial. It will look a lot like what the original North American immigrants steeled on, with hunting grazing animals, encouraging a plant biome with food trees and food for the grazers. Some places like plains, some places like Oak Savannas. Hence my planting various nut and acorn trees , and prepping the area for grazing. May come to naught, but maybe it will help.
Just wish there were better flint quarries nearby.
Alice F is totally on board with complexity theory. She has documented examples extensively on her blog for years
I’ve read a lot of Friedemann over the last 10 years. I know she gets our total dependence on fossils but my sense is she believes steady state at a lower level would work.
Maybe I missed or forgot something?
She has looked at what it would take to scale down and has concluded even that is impossible. For example, relying on wood for fuel and heat, she found north America would burn every single tree on the continent in less than a year.
She has also looked extensively at supply chains and documented many reasons why these can’t scale down – such a micro chips. Also remember Alice worked in logistics and understands better than most the complexity.
Another person who has worked a lot on this is Katie Singer. She provides a lot of guidance on how to trace back an entire supply chain with one ingredient / component to really grasp the complexity.
https://katiesinger.substack.com/about
Thanks for the link Monk, another excellent blog about our situation.
I especially like the post about “Can I keep within my ecological means when I need a new computer? Honestly, no.“
Anyone that has any doubt about complexity in our world and material dependence needs to read that post…..
https://katiesinger.substack.com/p/trace-one-substance
Some highlights for me…
“STEP 1: Pick one substance used in manufacturing a smartphone
The Screen: Aluminosilicate glass, aluminum, aluminum oxide, cerium, fluorinated greenhouse gas (F-GHG), gorilla glass, indium tin oxide, lead, lithium, nitric acid, oxide of silicon, potassium nitrate, sapphire, silicon dioxide, sulfuric acid, tin oxide.
The Battery: Aluminum, cadmium, carbon graphite, coal tar, cobalt, coltan, copper, graphite, lead, lithium cobalt oxide, lithium, manganese, mercury, nickel-metal hydride, organohalogen compounds, tantalum, zinc.
The Case: Aluminum alloys, bromine, magnesium, nickel, plastic, tin.
The Electronics (the circuit board, wiring, speakers, motors): Acetone, acetylene gas, antimony, arsenic, arsenic pentafluoride, arsine gas, benzene, beryllium, beryllium oxide, boron, boron tri-chloride (BC13), boron trifluoride, cadmium, charcoal, chlorofluorocarbons, chloroform, chromium, coal, copper, diborane, dysprosium, eucalyptus trees, gallium, gadolinium, gold, glycol ethers, hafnium, hydrochloric acid (HCL), hydrogen, hydrogen chloride gas, hydrofluoric acid, indium, lanthanum, lead, methylene chloride, neodymium-iron-boron, nickel, perchloroethylene, petroleum coke, palladium, phosphine, phosphorous, platinum, polychlorinated biphenyl, potassium, praseodynmium, quartz, scandium, silicon tetrachloride, silicon wafers, silver, sulfur dioxide, tantalum, terbium, tin, titanium aluminum nitride, titanium nitride, toluene, tri-chloroethylene (TCE), tungsten, water, wood, xylene, yttrium, zinc.”
When you consider all the people in industry around the world involved in the factories making the equipment required at the mines of all those materials, the transport of it all around the world, the roads, shipping ports, bridges that have to exist and be maintained for it to happen, then the processing plants at the mines, more shipping of concentrates, smelters and refineries (metals need to be smelted then refined), then distribution to all the manufacturers that make parts, that then gets transferred to the assembly plants where the screen is put together, the other factory where the battery is put together and on the chain goes until the final assembly plant where the separate parts are assembled into the phone, then packaged, to be again transported around the world to the huge markets needed to pay for it all…
Also have to mention all the specialized machinery required at every one of those factories along the chain, plus all the vehicle manufacturers required to build all the vehicles doing transporting of every step, plus the machines in all the factories that make the trucks, excavators, bulldozers, ball mills, ships, possibly trains etc, etc.
In other words it can only happen with a gigantic, industrial civilization working in normal mode of ‘growth’ in everything. Every one of the machines in every aspect of that chain will wear out and need replacing over time, such is entropy.
OK let’s assume in Jack’s new world of 50m people, smartphones are no longer able to be made (only around 15% of a smartphone is recycled), then what other industries/equipment will this take out of modernity??
I asked Gemini AI…..
“Here are some key components and their broader applications:
1. Processors (CPUs/SoCs) and Memory (RAM/Flash Storage):
2. Displays (LCD/OLED) and Touchscreens:
3. Cameras and Image Sensors:
4. Sensors (Accelerometer, Gyroscope, Magnetometer, Proximity, Ambient Light, Barometer):
5. Connectivity Chips (Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, GPS, Cellular Modems, NFC):
6. Batteries (Lithium-ion):
7. Rare Earth Elements and Precious Metals:
The drive for compact, powerful, and energy-efficient components in smartphones has inadvertently fueled innovation and material demand across countless other modern applications.”
Smaller size of civilization, guarantees the end of modernity as we know it, yet we totally rely upon all this modernity to mine the metals and minerals, farm on modern western equipment, to make everything in factories, in timber mills etc. All this modern machinery is way more efficient at using every aspect of the natural world, turning the natural world into products.
In a falling energy availability environment of modernity, we can’t go backwards to less efficient methods, we wont have the energy. We can’t shrink civilization either, as we will no longer have the market size to allow all the efficient processes from great complexity to exist. There is just no way out!!
https://peakoilbarrel.com/us-march-oil-production-at-new-high/#comment-789926
Thank you, haven’t heard of Katie Singer.
I like your fantasy. It reminds me of the Pax solution from Serentiy (2005).
A voluntary worldwide “hunger strike to the death” is obviously not gonna happen. But I’ve always held on to the hopium that if everyone simultaneously went on strike… which pretty much just means quit your job and stop consuming (other than food) … we could turn the tables on this miserable system pretty quickly. Would require an insane level of planning and coordination to implement… and some type of crazy enforcement protocol to ensure that people aren’t crossing the picket line by going to work (so yes, there would be lots of violence. LOL) … but it doesn’t seem completely impossible.
And for anyone that’s never seen this movie or the show Firefly… do yourself a favor and watch it… still remains the gold standard for good sci-fi.
Thanks for the excellent movie and TV recommendations. Adding both to my queue.
Serenity is great on its own. But if you watch the show first, you’ll already like all the characters which makes the movie experience much better.
I’m jealous.😊 If I could have my choice to watch anything for the first time again, it would be this.
Cool. I’m going crazy trying to sort out the episode order for tagging. They were broadcast out of order and some episodes were skipped before it was cancelled. Grok got me sorted.
LOL, I forgot about that. Yes, the idiot suits at FOX are the sole reason this show only has one season yet is the most beloved show in sci-fi.
FOX aired the episodes completely out of order and skipped some altogether. Ratings were horrible and did not get picked up for season two.
Grok probably found the right order for you. Wikipedia’s list looks correct also.
Firefly (TV series) – Wikipedia
I’ll second Chris’s recommendation here, it’s one of my favorites as well. All totally unrealistic like all science fiction, yet good acting and story lines. Watch the series first, the movie Serenity was made a few years after the series.
Some of the comedy is priceless..
Complexity theory has not yet been absorbed by the overshoot community.
https://ourfiniteworld.com/2025/05/27/economic-contraction-coming-right-up/comment-page-3/#comment-485394
Perhaps hightech healthcare could be scaled back as an start. Preventing a global health care systems collapse through low-tech medicine – PMC
Nice one Rob.
I only have the same old aint gonna happen idea on how we can reduce the suffering. Embracing and encouraging euthanasia.
I’m betting that 5% of the population (400 million) would volunteer right now. Have mainstream media slowly introduce overshoot and resource depletion, and that number jumps to 15%. Pick up the fear mongering pace with media and politicians hammering home the soon to be 17th century lifestyle (and exactly what that looks like) ….and we might even get it up to 40% (3.2 billion dead)
If I’m wrong about the willingness factor, then monetize it. Maybe something like every person who volunteers gets a $10,000 food stamp allotment to be designated to their choosing. That would create a cool scenario like some of my favorite native american stories about harsh times and conserving resources. Elders and the sick getting in a canoe and never coming back. Or walk out to the ocean and purposefully drown.
We peasants could actually die with some real purpose by directly helping the people we care about. A good win/win. And seems pretty easy to pull it off… until I factor in humanity’s unbreakable denial of death.😒
ps. I’m not 100% convinced that any of those elder sacrifice stories are real. Human hearsay is the most unreliable force in the universe… but on the other hand, I do believe that most stereotypes have valid reasons for why they got started in the first place. So ya, maybe it happened once or twice total. And every tribe incorporated it into their story because of how powerful and moving it is. LOL
Very good ideas.
Except if Hideaway is correct encouraging euthanasia will crash the system for the remaining people. Which probably explains why western countries with low birth rates have wide open borders despite their citizens wanting closed borders.
I hate that complexity theory. 🙁
The elder sacrifice stories sound a lot like the new happy farm home for a child’s sick dog.
“western countries with low birth rates have wide open borders” – not sure which alternate universe you are commenting from, as if you ask any working class migrant from the Global South if they have found the North’s borders anything other than heavily policed with severe, often violent punishments for those (apart from the wealthy elite and capital flows) who attempt to cross them.
Hi Rob, That’s a great questioning piece, you’ve done really well, including putting my perspective far more succinctly than I ever could…
This bit from Jack’s plan, is what I have issue with, but it’s not alone…
“Why does a new civilization that keeps our levels of arts and science support only 50 million people living like moderns”
I take it to be with the full modernity, which is not possible as we require hundreds of thousands of mines, processing plants, factories, transportation between them all and huge markets to bring us this modernity..
Could Jack’s plan work with much less modernity, say basic sewerage, refrigeration, 19th century transport, basic tractors for farming, small machinery for quarrying (not mining), while we mine derelict cities etc? Possibly, for a time (hundreds to a few thousand years), but not a sustainable long term future.
The biggest problem is as you outlined, human’s MPP. Even if we had a world agreement to start this process, how do we stop future humans from changing the narrative in any one of the cities and deciding to grow, to the detriment of the rest, then do the growth/take over via war, decimate the environment in living for the ‘now’ as the new civilization grows?
Any plan like these tends to ask humans to stop being humans, as we’ve grown, then run into a limit, then collapsed, many times before, but keep doing it because of our nature of gaining more for ‘our own’ at the expense of everything else, a natural tendency for every species.
Would a hungry lion hesitate to kill and eat the last remaining male gazelle if it could catch it??
Would the deer on St Matthews island stop breeding and reduce consumption of the lichen, before going into overshoot?
Rob ….”But what are the things we could do to reduce total suffering for all species?” I don’t know about “all species” but perhaps 99.9999% of all species would be for humanity to be wiped out with a virus, bacteria or fungal infection. Harsh but reality is a bitch…
I don’t think humans will ever go back to a natural living in harmony with the rest of nature voluntarily as I don’t believe in harmony with nature. It’s survival of the fittest, as I stated earlier, a hungry lion is going to eat the last male gazelle if it is the most easily caught, likewise for the very last gazelle. They don’t leave them alone just because the numbers look to be falling…
All good points.
I like your list of essentials: sewerage, refrigeration, basic tractors. Rural settings don’t need sewerage but damn I love my refrigerator.
I’m 2/3 of the way through the book Frostbite on the history of refrigeration recommended by Alice Friedemann. Great book. What a useful invention!
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/199514774-frostbite
Maybe add to your list of essentials: eyeglasses, trauma medicine, and basic dentistry?
That was just the start of a list, but there are parts of modernity we just wouldn’t be able to have like computers, high level mobile phones, electric vehicles (based on the high end electronics and REEs).
Even with recycling, everything would need to be made relatively simply so it could be taken apart into simple separate materials, with simple processes for recycling. Then there are plastics, used in every electrical device, hmmm… As you go through any details it all becomes harder to organize.
What about fencing of the farms feeding the 50M? Where does the zinc come from, which disappears back into the environment every 30 years? Plastic netting to keep birds off fruit and vegetable crops in a world where their numbers are re-building, where does it come from without modern complex equipment to drill for the last reserves of oil and gas plus the refineries, chemical plants etc all required?
I’ve done this exercise before, tried to go into a few details of Jack’s plan, but keep running into road blocks when anything other than very simple modernity comes into it. How could we have more than 1 million people in a city without plastic? When I look into recycling of plastic, I find only a small proportion is used at all, and even then most is ‘downcycled’, in other words not fit for original purpose. You only have to look at that Rome video to realise there are huge problems for even a city of 1 million…
Apart from the cities, we’d need large towns around 100km from the city, as regional centres for distribution, repairs of machinery, hospitals, higher learning centres, etc so that we were not having people travel all the way to the city and back for everything. Then even more minor towns between these larger provincial towns, up to possibly 20% of the population of the city in total, for all basic requirements not produced on the farms, then transport of some type between them. (perhaps steam trains based on wood?).
If the planned cities were of around 5M people each then the catchment for agriculture would be several hundred Km each, with a larger area based on wood for both energy and construction materials, and very dependent on the climate not changing.. So these cities assume the Holocene period of stability continues as without it than agriculture is not possible, meaning cities are not possible…
Damm, every time I go into more details, it only works with Goldilocks assumptions of human behavior, climate stability, etc, which are unrealistic. Maybe we should assume birds, insects and animals will not attack our growing crops as well, plus it’s always downhill to the cities, so simple gravity transport will work with moving food, dams never silt up, iron doesn’t rust, etc,
Oops probably too much? I just heard from a mechanic yesterday that my main irrigation pump from the creek will cost more to repair than buying a new one, likewise for a generator a few months ago. The cool room motor/compressor had to be replaced last year, for the same reasons.
We are basically heading in exactly the wrong direction from all the ‘green thinking’, climate initiatives, CO2 reductions required, as portrayed about the green future, and I only see the situation getting worse in the year/years ahead, as we head into collapse…
Have you considered that all the thinking about how to make the situation less worse, is just another form of denial, because future reality hurts so much??
I’m going to send this link to Jack. I’d love him to engage on your questions. I suspect he has answers for a lot of our concerns.
That’s an interesting twist. Maybe the only people not in denial are those who simply don’t care what reality is and just enjoy life.
Added the following quote to the sidebar:
As an anesthesiologist I like your list. You need anesthesia for trauma surgery. Anesthesia and pain killers is one the best inventions of all time. Much can be done in local anesthesia. I have also experimented on making ether with an still. In may hospital we have functional equipment for old time anesthesia.
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