By paqnation (aka Chris): My Final Act

Today’s guest essay by paqnation (aka Chris) tackles a challenging topic with deep ties to Dr. Ajit Varki’s MORT theory which inspires un-Denial.com.

Chris discusses yet another strange behavior that is unique to our species.

And how hard it is to do the right thing in our modern world.

I have been fixating on evil lately (on an individual level). And by evil I am just limiting it to anything that degrades ecological integrity. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that 100% of my everyday actions are steeped in evil. There is nothing I do that does not involve evil towards the planet. Just typing this essay on my internet computer in my house powered by electricity with the heater on. Everything in my home used up resources and fossil fuels to get to me. And I pay for it by working at a corporation that only creates more evil in the world. Jeez! Too much evil within evil within evil, to even comprehend. Driving my car is the same story. Ditto for eating my grocery store bought food. Every action a person takes in this civilization already has loads of evil baked into it. So what is the opposite of this. Planting trees, gardening, rewilding land, composting my toilet waste? Yes, but I’m sure there is lots of evil within that, just to get to the non-evil deed. Besides, I don’t do any of those things. And even if I did, ok fine, maybe I get my 100% evil actions down to 99%.

It’s obvious that there is a threshold for an acceptable amount of evil that Mother Earth can tolerate and would even expect. Heck, just picking up a piece of deadwood and using it to make a fire is evil. So there is no way to avoid it. The ecological overshoot graphs we’ve all seen time and time again explain what this “threshold” limit looks like. Just another thing that comes down to balance, harmony, and equilibrium. Which, of course, human civilization, by default, cannot achieve.

That got me focusing on my greatest act of evil. It feels like something related to my eating habits would be the winner. The wasting of all the food throughout my lifetime. Or just the day-by-day participation in this horrendous cycle of how we eat in today’s world. But this is more about the accumulation that makes it so evil. I’m looking for a single act that can be labeled “most evil thing I’ve ever done”. Flying on a plane maybe? Prior to my awakening to reality, I was guilty of some horrible acts. On multiple occasions I have dumped trash/junk out in the desert to avoid landfill fees. When I was a teenager, I once changed my car oil and dumped the old oil on the side of the road. At least I’ve never started a forest fire, which has to take the cake for the most evil one person can do (or maybe I’m not thinking hard enough). But I believe I have a clear-cut winner that most of us will be guilty of and does not happen until we are dead.

A lot of people write about nature’s contract or the social contract. Here is a great link on the topic by Tom Murphy: In Breach of Contract.

The core of these “contracts” seems to me is the create/sustain/end part. The “end” portion is where I think our biggest act of evil may rest. We are the only species in which the dead do not return naturally to the eco-system.

Long-life coffins, clothes & decor, deep burial and embalming (which contaminates the soil and groundwater) result in the dead remaining intact for a very long time. Overall, embalming for burial uses over 800,000 gallons of toxic chemicals every year. As well as the costs thru time of mowing around your grave and re-erecting your crumbling gravestone. Not knowing much about this topic, I found out that we put coffins (wooden and metal) inside bigger cement coffins. Our fear of critters eating our corpse is laughably insane. This type of burial practice is just over a hundred years old, which makes perfect sense considering the insanity of modernity and being alive in the most abnormal moment in human history.

Cremation (which I have always preferred) is even worse and turns your body into air pollution and barren ash. Studies of emissions reveal that cremation turns people into at least 46 different pollutants. Some of these, like nitrous oxides and heavy metals, remain in the atmosphere for up to 100 years causing ozone depletion and acid rain. Cremation emits mercury, sulfur dioxide, and, in the US, about 360,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions into our air every year. Our bodies, on average, take three hours to burn in a crematorium, using up large quantities of fuels like electricity and natural gas. Once again, our fear of critters eating our corpse is laughably insane.

I was bouncing around the internet to get this info. And maybe my stats and figures can be debated, but I think everyone who is this far along into their collapse journey can easily understand how giving my 220 pounds of resources back to Mother Earth is much more beneficial than disintegrating my resources into ashes or keeping them preserved in a metal box inside of a concrete box. (and this is why it feels like my final act will be my most evil)

I can almost hear the absurd conversation with our “Creator/Sustainer/End” in my head. It goes something like:

Mother Earth: Ok, here’s the contract. I am going to create you using my resources, then sustain you with my resources, and when you die I will end you by consuming your resources so that I can keep creating and sustaining in this beautiful cycle of life. Deal?

Modern Humans: Ok, I’ll take you up on your offer for creating and sustaining me, but when it comes time for the end portion, I will renege on our deal and not allow you to use my resources for your benefit. In fact, I’m gonna go out with one last bang and continue harming you even though I’m dead. Deal?

Take, take, take. Never give. Just follows the normal human civilization theme of “everything we do and how we do it is wrong (evil)”.

Natural burials and green burials seem like a better way to go. A quick definition in case you’ve never heard of green burial: designed to have a minimal environmental impact and conserve natural resources. It emphasizes simplicity and sustainability. In a typical green burial, the body is not cremated, prepared with chemicals, or buried in a concrete vault. And some of the green burial sites sell it with options where you are buried with no casket and then a tree is planted on top of you. Having a tree sprout above my corpse is a beautiful idea that I would have mocked (or been grossed out by) prior to my “awakening”.

Unfortunately, the cost is high and availability is low. Average pricing (for my state) is $5,000. And for comparison, traditional burial is $8,000 and cremation is $1,500 (although, when my Dad passed away a few years ago, the cremation cost $2,500. No service or fancy urn. Just the bare minimum). And it looks like there is an even better way called human composting. Which is pretty much exactly what it sounds like. But this is only available in a handful of states (mine is not one of them). And cost is $5,000 – $7,000.

I will definitely be looking into these alternatives more because I prefer my final act to not be evil if I can help it (and afford it). Might be my one and only good deed towards ecological integrity. There should be a legal, easy & inexpensive way to put our dead naked bodies into the soil for two obvious reasons. First and foremost, so that Mother Earth gets full maximum benefit. And second so that modern humans can at least honor a portion of our contract.

One last note. I came up with this topic by staring at the table below. Sounds weird, I know. I created this simple table a while back (which I’m sure can be nitpicked to death) for the sole purpose of keeping me on track. My bargaining phase gets me to waste time chasing magical solutions. Looking at this chart helps bring me back down to reality. Another positive outcome is that it gets me thinking about stuff I that I’ve never thought about.

Thanks for listening, Chris

Rob here, I can confirm Chris’ research because one of my university summer jobs was making precast concrete coffin liners.

Chris’ essay reminded me of a comedy skit on peak oil from the 2005 play by Robert Newman titled Apocalypso Now.

It’s a fun reminder of how many of us doomers thought 20 years ago.

If you’re in a hurry, skip ahead to the 6 minute mark for the relevant joke.

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paqnation
March 4, 2024 6:07 pm

This article is what got me interested in Daniel Quinn. Even if you disagree with some of it, at the very least its thought provoking.

Have You Heard of The Great Forgetting? It Happened 10,000 Years Ago & Completely Affects Your Life
https://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/the-great-forgetting/

monk
monk
March 4, 2024 3:12 pm

I really enjoy Katie Singer’s work and her new-ish substack is going from strength to strength. I thought I would link her here for un-denial readers not familiar. Katie is particularly interested in communicating the real footprint of the technosphere, but is very much across population overshoot as well. I like that in much of her writing, she brings it back to practical things anyone can do in their own life. I find her way of looking at problems really helpful.
https://katiesinger.substack.com/p/defining-overshoot

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 2:34 pm

Lex Friedman #415 released today, interviews Sherii Plokhy. 3+ hours long. I listened to it but I’m not sure I agree with the interview. Plokhy, prof at Harvard(?), is of Ukrainian or Russian heritage. Most of what he was saying that wasn’t ancient history I found suspiciously like what a proponent of Ukraine’s position would say. I never got any inclination that the US perpetrated all of this on the former Warsaw pact countries and was attempting to destroy Russia. I’d be very interested in anyone here’s take on what he said, if you listen to the whole thing. I skipped around a lot.
AJ

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 4:58 pm

I’ve posted this before, but it is possible that some of our leaders would prefer a nuclear war over the U.S. not being an unchallenged superpower.

“People of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage. Intellectual myopia, often called stupidity, is no doubt a reason. But the privileged also feel that their privileges, however egregious they may seem to others, are a solemn, basic, God-given right. The sensitivity of the poor to injustice is a trivial thing compared with that of the rich.”
― John Kenneth Galbraith

Anonymous
Anonymous
Reply to  Stellarwind72
March 4, 2024 9:23 pm

The late great Joe Bageant used similarly colorful language as Galbraith:

“the world’s aristocrats do what they have always done: surf the crest of power and wealth with their dicks pointed into the sunset of their civilization and their heads up their asses.”

-The Audacity of Depression (2008)

http://www.mendacitypress.com/5.2008Bageant.html

Hamish McGregor
Reply to  Anonymous
March 5, 2024 5:19 am

I’m about half way through and had to post, that link is a must-read. I have a fondness for some writers and rarely for speakers, with some exceptions – the late Christopher Hitchens, Stephen Fry and the male voice that read the late night BBC Radio 4 Shipping Forecast for most of my adult life.

I wish I had discovered Joe Bageant a long time ago. 1946 – 2011, 65 years.

I raise a glass to you Joe.

Theme (Sailing By) to the Shipping Forecast by the late Ronald Binge 1910 – 1979, 69 years.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qfvv

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 12:17 pm

US leadership has been insane from the very beginning.

AJ
AJ
March 4, 2024 7:30 am

Today, March 4, 2024, I feel like I am a civilian, in somewhere like France’ prior to WWI and I heard of the plans of Archduke Ferdinand to go on a tour of Serbia tomorrow.

We are marching up to Nuclear Winter and the only thing between us and that end is a couple of rational, sane people in the Kremlin who are becoming paranoid, exasperated, and frustrated that they are not being paid attention to by the senile fools in the U.S./West. All humanity (and the biosphere) is held hostage to the ability of those in the Kremlin to avoid certain near term extinction amid the collapse of Western Civilization in its death throws attempt to maintain global hegemony.

To wit, the conversations (probably leaked by Russia) of the discussion by German generals, to launch German missiles, utilizing German troops controlling those missiles, from an air base in Germany that hosts U.S. F-16s and U.S. nuclear weapons. INSANITY!! Since said missiles can be launched from those planes and can be loaded with those nukes.

One can argue that this release of the conversation is Russia’s attempt to bring down the current German government (Scholtz) and maybe NATO AND avoid having to hit that air base with a missile preemtively.

I don’t think we have ever been as close to Nuclear War, except during the Cuban Missile crisis (but then both the USSR and the US had sane leaderships.

The following two articles flesh out most of these points:

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2024/03/03/the-braindead-american-foreign-policy-establishment/

https://johnhelmer.net/the-good-germans-are-blowing-smoke/

AJ

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 8:43 am

Rob,
My problem is that it’s not just Germany, it’s all of us in the west that are immediately at risk as Chuck Watson so eloquently pointed out many times.

I watched a so-so movie yesterday on Netflix called “The Killer” and in a scene the Killer (hero? protagonist) is going to kill another assassin after a dinner and that person said something to the effect “I guess I should have eater Hagen Dazs after all my meals” – meaning that when you are going to die youngish why did you worry about your health. I feel that way now.

To further reinforce the dire state we are in:
https://www.indianpunchline.com/putins-nuclear-warning-is-direct-and-explicit/

AJ

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 12:56 pm

I was recently talking to my sister about some of the crazy laws in Canada. Like how difficult it is to buy, register, and insure a secondhand vehicle. How difficult it is for one person to sell a vehicle to another person. That’s terrible for emissions and personal finances that Canada incentivizes people to buy new cars on finance through stupid laws.

Jan Steinman
Reply to  monk
April 27, 2026 9:45 pm

At least here in BC, it isn’t difficult to sell/transfer a vehicle. It’s one form for the ownership transfer.

The difficult part is you’re supposed to pay sales tax on the transfer.

What is insanely difficult is bringing a vehicle into BC from another province or country. It has to undergo a comprehensive inspection that is almost impossible to pass on anything older than a few years.

Anonymous
Anonymous
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 5, 2024 12:18 am

Yes, Germany is disappointing. At least the government, which acts completely against the interests of the people and is foreign-controlled by the USA – that means, they are not allowed to have own plans, to answer your question.

But most Germans are too prone to the western propaganda and dont’t recognize this, because Germans as a whole are simply too naive and gullible. As everyone knows, we were already to blame for WW1 and WW2. And this guilt is instilled in every German during their school education and by everyday propaganda – whether it is true or not (history is always written by the victor).
Nevertheless, after WW2 we were rebuilt by the USA. Certainly not out of a good heart, but as a servant and buffer to the Soviet Union. Then as a cash cow for Europe and the Western world. And now that resources are becoming scarce and economic power has been used up, Germany can be leveled to ground again. What could be better than another world war to blame them for? All good things come in threes… Why should we look for a new scapegoat when the old one has proved so successful and has willingly accepted the blame?

It’s like a narcissistic relationship on a global level. The Americans are the narcissists: arrogant, grandiose, irascible, you name it. The Germans are the co-dependents who allow themselves to be bossed around and humiliated again and again. The other Europeans are America’s flying monkeys, supporting the narcissist in it’s false reality over the victim. The victim can’t end the relationship because they are at the mercy of the narcissist’s rage. Russia would probably be the better partner for Germany – but the narcissist would never allow this over his dead body:

“The main interest of the United States, over which we have fought wars for centuries – the First, the Second and the Cold War – is the relationship between Germany and Russia, because united they are the only force that could threaten us. And we have to make sure that doesn’t happen.”
George Friedman

Stellarwind72
March 3, 2024 1:10 pm

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/chip-4-why-prices-rise-long-term-%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A7%E3%82%A6%E3%83%9B%E3%82%A6-%E5%91%A8-4zjfc
Why (semiconductor) chip prices are rising.

In the future, chip prices will continue to rise over the long term, even showing a trend contrary to Moore’s Law, gradually becoming more expensive. In a few years, chips produced using top technology and processes may no longer be affordable for the average person.

The same applies to chip manufacturing processes. In 2012, when the manufacturing process was still 28 nm, the production of a processor had about 450 steps; by 2021, with the 5 nm process, the production steps had increased to 1200.

This increase in process cost directly destroyed the second part of Moore’s Law, which is “the price of a new product with the same performance is halved every 18-24 months.” That was under the assumption that the production steps remained basically the same, but now with a 200% increase in steps, there’s no reason for prices not to increase.

Therefore, to achieve 3 nm and 2 nm processes, no matter how expensive the equipment is needed, even if ASML’s lithography machines are $2 billion each. As long as there is demand, they will continue to pile up more complex and advanced technology to produce the next generation of chips, and then set a price based on their own costs.

What happens when demand is destroyed by high oil prices? What happens when the economies of scale start breaking down?

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 12:58 pm

Until they stop supporting your items with software updates… that’s happened to me a few times 🙁

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 3, 2024 5:15 pm

I’d modify that first point to: a wise species would gradually decrease electricity generation and energy use. It would not develop any new energy sources.

A wise species would understand the unsustainable nature of the civilisation it has developed and seek to avoid worsening the situation as it sets its cleverest minds to the question of how global societies should be organised and how to best reduce population sizes without overloading communities with older people (i.e. seeking a good balance).

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Mike Roberts
March 3, 2024 8:02 pm

Mike, I’d modify that yet again to a wise species would never go down the path of any development beyond their natural world in the first place. Sort of like Whales, Dolphins and Elephants that all have larger brains than humans.

Perhaps the question should be more like… what would a species that suddenly gained wisdom about overshoot do? (or something similar)

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Hideaway
March 3, 2024 8:43 pm

I think I disagree with the further modification. Firstly, because I believe we’re referring to wise moves given the current situation. Secondly, because wisdom comes with knowledge. Humans just didn’t know the full impact of certain behaviours, for hundreds of thousands of years. Even if they did, they would have to somehow override the drives of a species and the maximum power principle. That would take more than wisdom, I think. Some kind of super will power, except that no species has free will!

Stellarwind72
March 3, 2024 6:03 am

Today, March 3, is World Wildlife Day.
Wildlife populations have fallen by almost 70% in the past half century.
https://www.wildlifeday.org/en

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 3, 2024 11:25 am

Tribes that overshoot win. This a strategic problem for any wise society. I’m not sure if there’s any way to solve this. For example, it is estimated that Britian has invaded 90% of all countries. Those overshooting islanders were a threat to just about everyone and their genetics are now scattered across the globe

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 3, 2024 1:41 pm

I have to admit I’m a globalist for the very fact that tribes will fight each other for resources. Initially ‘we’ as in humanity were in small tribes of a few dozen, that eventually became tribes of up to the Dunbar’s number of around 150, which IMHO only became much larger tribes with the invention of writing. Now our ‘tribes’ can be up to and over a billion people because of fast communication and common language between these people.

If we can be a tribe of a billion (Chinese, Indian, or English speakers), then there is no reason why we can’t be a tribe of 8 billion, which, again IMHO is the only way we could seriously tackle overpopulation in a short period.

Take away the deep psychological reason or need to ‘grow’, being protection from other large tribes, and one world government could immediately tackle overpopulation. How this one world government could or should work, I do have some ideas on, and even a method to get there, that most would laugh off as unacceptable, but is possibly the only existing, relatively easy legal way, to get to a one world government.

It seems to me that most of overshoot is because tribes are scared of other tribes taking ‘their’ resources and way of life away. The ‘way of life’ though is now capitalism of some type all over the world. We all vote in some type of dodgy rigged elections for our ‘leaders’, so are all pretty similar anyway.

If we take away the need for military forces (still have police forces) and the need for ‘growth’ in the protection sense, then it’s possible for the leaders to concentrate on overpopulation, ecocide, pollution and general overshoot.

Without one world government we will end up in WW3 during a mad grab for the last useful resources as economies everywhere head into collapse, if history is any guide at all, which I believe it is…

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 3, 2024 5:14 pm

I suspected you would say something like that when I mentioned it. It would be ‘out there’ in terms of different type of thinking. But without one world government nuclear war is virtually guaranteed as one side runs out of resources to ‘fight’ any type of enemy, once we are well past maximum fossil fuel use. Sure it will be the last option used of any war, but what does it matter if we all go to nuclear winter anyway?

It would take the size of a full post to explain it all, plus the potential roadblocks. Will it ‘save’ civilization in the longer term? Most likely not, but that is not how I’d sell the argument. Perhaps if my other findings about the future were incorrect, then civilization could last for a long term on a much smaller basis. We can all be wrong in whatever we have worked out because we missed a piece of information out in our calculations, that we didn’t know about, none of us know everything…

Any hope of reduction of human overshoot on all other life forms on this planet, is likely dependent on us becoming a single tribe that’s wiser. Being one tribe is certainly smarter than fighting over diminishing resources with nuclear war…

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 4, 2024 6:24 am

This would disqualify most current office holders (which wouldn’t be such a bad thing). I suspect that there are some politicians who are overshoot aware, but don’t speak about it publicly.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 3, 2024 6:32 pm

I agree, I was more likely to use something like a snowballs chance in hell as the odds of anything positive happening.. My idea is nowhere near the WEFs concepts..

monk
monk
Reply to  Hideaway
March 4, 2024 2:26 pm

Total power totally corrupts.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 2, 2024 2:42 pm

This was good. I’ve had similar thoughts. I like to think that I am above the average person because I’ve pretty much eliminated the TV from my life. And my cell phone has no internet. But its totally delusional thinking as my computer gets about 90% of my free time.

Off-topic, I’ve seen “prep tips” scattered around here. I should’ve been jotting em down. Rob, since your organizational skills seems to be OCD like, just wondering if you have compiled a list. If not, no big deal.

And the “finding common points” essay idea has me excited. But lets not forget about “what would a wise community do?” I’m looking forward to reading that one.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 2, 2024 2:14 pm

Given the reality of peak oil, they may as well have invested it in Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC.

ABC
ABC
March 2, 2024 3:06 am

Greetings everyone.

A). It would be interesting to learn how the active ones here underwent their transformation and became aware.

B.) All biological entities face stress.
Thus they must react, adapt and survive.

Without doing so, they perish.

For h.sapiens, the problem is cognitive.

Biologically all entities are hardwired to face physical stress.
To give up resources is evolutionary counter productive. (MPP)
Thus h.sapiens experiences denial as it is the opposite of its biological function to do the “wise” thing.

Why do many religions and philosophies embrace the concept of asceticism as they seek to find “the way” by having a clear and rational frame of mind by being aware of themselves and everything around them.

Buddhists destroy the art they create with coloured sand.

Quotes such as:

“Know thyself”

“He who conquers others is strong, he who conquers himself is mighty”

Kind regards,

ABC

Charles
Charles
Reply to  ABC
March 2, 2024 11:11 am

Ah ah ah.
Love your questions and quotes.
There is much beauty in this world.
None of it it all can be cast in any mental framework.

If you are interested in the details of my personal journey, as you may already know, there is much described in the guest post Rob was kind enough to welcome on this site:

https://un-denial.com/2023/07/30/by-charles-doomers-visions-of-the-future/

I’d just like to point out that becoming collapse-aware, in my case, took time. It was a relatively slow process. Roughly 10 years to get to the conclusion of brutal, rapid, unescapable collapse, followed by a very dark period of 10 years.
But I don’t think becoming aware of collapse, is truly becoming aware. It’s only a necessary phase in the destruction of the illusion of knowledge. This process was necessary for me to break free of the mental prison.

In the same way that there is no spoon, there is no “biological entity”.
This is just a particular way to frame reality, a map.
What is is. And it is not even a what.
What I am saying is not denial of death. There is death and there is no death. It depends on the map (the lenses) you use to orientate yourself. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. Once you get there, you will see (if there is a you)
If you want to live in despair suits yourself.
If not, break free of the thought system you are currently prisoner of and see for yourself. Live.
“Know thyself” might just be a trick question. Similar to Ramana Maharshi “What am I?”. If I give you the answer to the question, the question loses its value. It would be a shame to waste a bullet.
There is a good joke in non-duality: nobody ever reached enlightenment. This is a hint as to what the answer might be.
But don’t forget: there is a mountain, there is no mountain, there is a mountain.
The boat to cross the river (of death?) is destroyed once on the other side: it is not useful any more. And it is fun to switch glasses from time to time.
As long as everything is cast within a particular system of thoughts, there can be no peace. Self can’t get out of self.

Many will say I am just crazy, suit themselves. The true question might be: who is not? In any case, none of what I said previously is random.
It all has value only if you experience it. Then see.

Anyway, there is no recipe. It’s outside the realm of understanding, the realm of control. You won’t get it, it will get you.

I am laughing so much, just before pressing the reply button. Because I know how much this comment will not be appreciated by some of the readers here. Ah ah ah…

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
March 2, 2024 12:26 pm

Just read your essay Charles. Wow! and enough hyperlinks to keep me busy for a year. I’ve now read about 7 or so of these guest essays and have been impressed with all. Maybe I need to suck it up and try to read every single one.

For me, the comments are just as important. And the comment from Charles essay that stood out the most was strangely from Monk talking about oxalates. I learned I eat way too much nuts. Thought I was doing a good thing by eating large quantities. What a bummer!

And you made me laugh with the reply button bit. I so relate. I’m doing a better job of putting my ego aside and just saying “fu*k it, I dont care how crazy I sound”. (I think this site is good for that because a lot of us are in the same boat)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
March 3, 2024 4:44 am

Feel welcome (at least by me) to sound crazy anytime 🙂

paqnation
March 1, 2024 8:46 pm

Here’s that “MORT for dummies” sales pitch. I made it for family and friends. Please let me know if my logic & comprehension is in the right ballpark. And is it too dumbed down or not enough?

Think of the brain as a big hotel with thousands of rooms. Each room has its own unique function. But only 2 of these rooms are locked and have never been opened. Theory of Mind (ToM) is the function of the first locked room. Mind Over Reality Transition (MORT) is the function of the second locked room (don’t get hung up on the purpose/definitions of these two functions, just be aware that they exist). And by design of the hotel, it’s impossible for MORT to open prior to ToM opening.

Most species will never be able to open ToM (and by default never open MORT). But when a species does figure out how to crack open ToM’s door, this new room gives them the ability to understand things that were unknown and unthought of prior. Like self-awareness. Being able to comprehend that you have thoughts, emotions, feelings and so does everyone else. And if ToM’s door has been opened wide enough it eventually leads to the heavier themes of being able to understand mortality and that everything dies. And that when you die, it’s game over.

For this species that now understands mortality, if MORT’s room is still locked at this point, they will be so fearful of death that they will soon go extinct from lack of taking risk (in other words, living life). Let’s use this analogy: think of a hard-core agoraphobic. One that is so terrified to leave his house that he will eventually die from starvation, thirst or isolation. This person’s MORT door is closed and not in use. If the doctors and drugs can get his MORT door to open all the way (like yours and mine), he will no longer have the agoraphobia, and everything will be “ok”. If they can only get his MORT door to open just a little bit, then he’ll still have a better chance of being able to go outside and hence continue living. But he is not “ok” and will continue having issues because that door is not open wide enough.

We can simplify MORT as the ability to deny (to a certain degree) scary things. We humans are so afraid of death that every religion has a life after death story. The senior care living industry exists solely because of our fear of being directly involved in the death process. And this is with a wide-open MORT door! Now imagine if our MORT room was suddenly closed and locked. We’d all become similar to our agoraphobic friend and would soon go extinct.

Now what is the point of all this? On a global scale, if enough people, say 20%, become aware of and understand this process, we would begin to see the world differently because our collective worldviews would be shifting (by closing our MORT door just a little bit). Eventually we would stop denying our guaranteed upcoming collapse and start accepting and embracing it. Which would make us stop doing insane things (business as usual) that only guarantees a faster and harder nosedive off the cliff. No more wasting precious time & energy on hopium solutions to save civilization (which is not even possible). Instead, we would begin doing what makes sense to minimize the damage, soften the blow, a gradual step down from the cliff.

Also, because our species has hit the incredibly ultra-rare trifecta lottery (wide open ToM door / wide open MORT door / and fossil hydrocarbons), we could begin to grasp the extremely monumental notion that we are witnessing the end of what is most likely the pinnacle of what is possible in the entire universe.

I assume most of you will understand everything I’ve written above. I also assume most of you will not believe a word of it (once again, because your MORT door is too wide open). I suspect you have to have some knowledge of certain things before you will be able to truly believe (and accept) our current predicament. I don’t know the correct starting point (for closing your MORT door just a little bit), but these three topics will get you headed in the right direction: ecological overshoot, EROEI (energy), human supremacy.

Chris

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 10:55 pm

I vote yes on finding common points. I’ll make a prediction right now that the popular answer will be “… a personal crisis and changed completely in a very short time”. Its exactly me and I have had a fear that the only way to start the awaking process (in a reasonably quick timeframe) is thru crisis, trauma, etc. Thats a depressing thought. Dowd made it sound good, “the pathway to happiness is thru hardship” (or something). And I totally agree, on the individual level. But 8 billion? No chance. (but hopium tells me we just need a small percentage of 20%)

So ya, I’d want to hear the details about others.

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  paqnation
March 2, 2024 4:03 am

I second you Chris on a tell-all reveal on how we all made our way onto this doomsphere, by whatever means and routes. What a very fitting bonding experience, Rob, for our little band of un-denialists here at the end (or beginning) of everything. It will take some more soul-searching and hopefully I will be able to offer my contribution in a more condensed form than you would have come to expect from me!

I like your secret unlocked room analogy, enticingly described–but the trick is even knowing that we have such a hidden possibility and then trickiest of all, what is the key that would open it? I guess that’s the Holy Grail that we’re trying to find, and although our stories will confirm that whilst there are many ways to reach the goal, the actual likelihood of even a fraction minority achieving it given the state of the collective worldview is vanishingly small. 20% would be a fantastical hope, and if it ever did come to pass, I am afraid catastrophic end-time collapse would have befallen all of us and then it will all be just a postscript of our human history. It’s impossible to explain to a fish what living out of water is like, just as for those who live in a world of denial, it is their normality, the only thing they have ever known. When the ultimate scene arrives, they can only gasp in the air still believing that water will come to save them. Perhaps it is better to let the majority of fish keep this lone, however vain hope, rather than obliterate their universe as we here have done for ourselves, slowly dying a million deaths with every realisation of our impending and already actuated doom. We are the fish that jumped out of the sea and somehow lived, the exception mutants that prove the rule. Perhaps we must learn to trust that evolution is the wiser to keep this door firmly shut, locked, and with key thrown away in respect to MORT. If everything is eventually unsustainable in the cosmic sense (as even our universe has a use-by date, if there is such thing in dimensions that stretch time and space, this totally does my head in) then all is just unfolding as it will and our blue-green planet is one iteration of possibility out of infinite possibility, no more and no less.

See you soon here again and looking forward to it. All the best to you and your family.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 5, 2024 9:17 am

Well that was a big swing and a miss. I have nine people in my inner circle that I send stuff like this to. I usually get no reply’s, but this time I got two. Both were along the lines of “Chris, if you are so sure that civilization is ending, then why don’t you try doing something about it?”

Jeez, silly me. Thought that was exactly what I was trying to do with this stupid “MORT for dummies” breakdown. Uggghhh. I don’t know why I’m surprised. If the carbon pulse diagram generated no interest, then why would this. (I should have never cut my vacation short. I already need another one. lol)

I’ve seen some of you talk about how you were born without the denial mutation (or something similar). I don’t believe that and think it’s more about “us” kind of suppressing our MORTness, by gaining knowledge. But maybe you guys are correct.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 5, 2024 1:04 pm

Ya, probably smart to not preach to normies. At this point they must think I’m insane.

Soul crushing…. If I ever did have a soul, it has long since been crushed. 20 years in sales (call center environments) of lying my ass off so that I could get some poor schmuck to buy something they dont even want. Ex convicts (by far) always did the best in telemarketing gigs. The reward incentive is disgusting. I’ve seen many sweet innocent grandmother types turn into relentless bullshit con artists after they realized the golden rule of sales: the better liar they become, the more money on their paycheck.

monk
monk
Reply to  paqnation
April 27, 2026 8:59 pm

I work in Business Development too- I totally get it 🙂

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 27, 2026 8:57 pm

I think when the mainstream story no longer works for you, or never worked, then you go searching for other stories to explain things.

paqnation
March 1, 2024 7:21 pm

Hello everyone. Back early from vacation. Forgot how much I enjoy un-denial. You guys were busy while I was gone. Some great conversations (the Jack Alpert stuff especially).

I think it was Hideaway who said a while back how its not about being smarter and that he learns something new from almost every commentor. So damn true for this website. Everyone on here “gets it”. Cant be said about any other site that I know of. Even the arguments are totally informative and never veer into wasteland material.

Now maybe Rob does a good job of deleting worthless comments and shielding us from the bullshit. Makes me curious how many people visit this site on an average day. Of course its depressingly low, but at the same time be careful what you wish for, because if it went mainstream overnight it would be ruined by the ignorant masses.

While I was gone, I was toying around with a “MORT for dummies” type sales pitch. I’ll post it up here after I make it legible.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 7:54 pm

I do agree with this. The fact that detailed data from the trials was not made available for independent analysis tells me that the trials didn’t prove safety and we know efficacy is minimal.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 3:09 pm

I thought his warning that the US would start a nuclear war was the most ominous thing he has said. He is certain that the US/ NATO will lose to Russia and we have no method of backing down and will go nuclear. Indeed is appraisal of Biden and crew was that they are fools who know nothing. Other than that it was an illuminating discussion.
AJ

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 7:30 pm

no one gets covid today except those that are transfected

New Zealand still publish the vaccination details of those who test positive for COVID-19. The number is low because the number of unvaccinated is low but about 180 per week of reported cases are unvaccinated. The per-capita rate of hospitalisations is about the same for the unvaccinated and the boosted, and those having the primary course (two doses for most) have the lowest hospitalisation rate (hospitalised because of COVID-19).

Only self-reported self-tests are now reported as cases.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 8:00 pm

NZ also had deceptive figures on hospitalisations but the definitions were changed a long time ago and, since then, only those hospitalised because of COVID-19 were reported. I believe I said this in my comment.

Of course, the data may be made up but then no-one can claim anything about the numbers. You say no unvaccinated people contract covid but how do you know? You made a claim and I reported on the only data I have that the claim wasn’t true of NZ.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Mike Roberts
March 1, 2024 11:36 pm

Well, I am not sure of what I am going to say here, because I am not a statistician.

But I believe that if you know these 3 things, you can make up your mind:
* how many people you directly know
* among them, how many have had some kind a serious illness after the vaccination started
* among them, how many are vaccinated
(You probably could do the same estimate using your 2 degree connections, the people known by the people you know. But do not mix direct connections with 2 degree connections when doing the ratio, that would skew the results)
Note that, big companies/state agencies, by using data from social networks (facebook, linkedin…) crossed with vaccination status could establish in which region of the world people are starting to have doubts. This could help them to shape their manipulative agenda and stop encouraging vaccination before popular push-back. Are they doing this? Why not? The means are easy and I am sure there are sophisticated data-scientists making this possible. It would go well with the censorship.

So anecdoticaly, to me, it looks like mild to extreme side-effects of vaccines are in the order of more than 1 per cent. Which is very high.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Charles
March 2, 2024 1:46 am

Well, I don’t know of enough people who’ve been vaccinated to give a confident figure (though most of the people I know the vaccine status of have had the vaccine and some have even had multiple boosters). I know of only one person who had a serious side effect, though they are fine now. I wouldn’t expect companies making money out of the vaccines to care whether some people are having doubts in any region and must already know that all regions have such people. And I certainly wouldn’t expect any government which introduced vaccination to change their public stance on it.

Stellarwind72
February 29, 2024 7:25 pm

https://www.collapsemusings.com/you-think-the-holocaust-was-bad-just-wait/
I was reading this hair-raising article by Alan Urban about climate refugees.

As I already pointed out, there are going to be upwards of a billion climate refugees over the next couple decades as the planet heats up faster and faster. Water shortages will lead to widespread disease and crop failures. Meanwhile, heatwaves will cause so much demand for air conditioning that power grids fail and millions die from heatstroke.

Naturally, people living in places where the heat, disease, and food shortages are worst will try to escape to somewhere cooler and more stable. And can you blame them? If you feared that your children were going to starve or die in a heatwave, wouldn’t you do everything in your power to get them somewhere safer?

As Michael said, “Our societies will become brutal.” The challenge will be to hold onto our humanity no matter what happens. To stand up for the oppressed no matter how difficult or dangerous it gets. Not because it will save society or even because it’s the right thing to do.

There will be billion climate refugees by 2050. I am in my mid 20’s, so I was born about a quarter of a century ago, 2050 is basically quarter of a century away. How will governments respond to such a situation? Do they have any plan for that? They are already struggling to handle current refugee flows.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 11:28 pm

Sorry, I don’t buy your interpretation. Here is mine 🙂

There wouldn’t be a call for more children by many governments otherwise.
We have recently seen the largest power and riches grab in the western world.
Yes, at this point, the elite/ruling/owner class is aware of the impending crisis. They are using it as an opportunity and hope to shield themselves (their objective is not to lose an ounce of power: they are OK going back to feudalism, slavery, extermination…)
There is no humanism in this. This is just the continuation of the war against life, the continuation of the same beliefs brought to the extreme: social darwinism, growth paradigm, exploitation of the weak (nature and then human), trust in human ingenuity (aka Science) and manipulations (the machiavellian prince) to achieve its goals, a hierarchical world view, an organisation of society based on ownership and legal documents…
In France, I can definitely tell you there is no will to stabilize things from the government, only power grab. And the population is not all unaware. The current power is fighting to the last bit to keep growth going on (latest example: highway A69 https://www.connexionfrance.com/article/French-news/Controversial-new-A69-motorway-in-southern-France-What-do-you-think)

However, I trust the “higher force” (this is just a word for that which is more powerful than any human rule, I don’t necessarily mean a bearded old and wise guy), that these shenanigans will be put to good use (In other words, it may turn out as you describe in your interpretation, even though these are not the primary objective).
The current people in power are dinosaurs and they are slowly cornering themselves. (As soon as they succeed to grab all the property rights, it will be rendered meaningless. Entropy will ensure this)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 12:20 am

Yes 🙂 Sorry. I should have known better.

As my comment just below shows, I am also oscillating between a few interpretations. I am like you: it may well be possible that even the people in position of power are simply afraid, just trying to control their little part of the world according to their small will (except they seem to have more impact. This may well just be an illusion)

This is funny how our latest exchanges repeatedly lead to the same point.
I seem to be stumbling before the wall of acceptance. That there are things I can’t know. That there may well be no driving forces (the notion of driving force may well be just a mental illusion, an interpretation, as invalid as the hierarchy of being). It is diffuse. Some would maybe say: God is everywhere and so is the devil 🙂

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Charles
February 29, 2024 11:51 pm

Just after publishing this previous comment, I had an after-thought.

Truth be told, I have a less partisan and even simpler interpretation.

I believe they fear collapse like everybody else. Their greatest fear revolves around that which they invest all their energy: riches and power. They know about the increasing difficulties of mineral/fossil fuels extraction. Maybe some are already losing money (in absolute terms, not relatively to the rest of the population). They are just focused on the dashboard and steering wheel available to them and like many of us, do not want to let go.

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 12:16 am

Wow Rob, that was awesome, you just about deciphered everything there is to deny on this blue-green planet. Of course this un-denial club is so cool that we would have our own decoder chart to which we can refer anytime we want to confirm the opposite side’s true agenda!

A few comments back about the joys of re-wilding, yes that was what we thought we were achieving with letting a corner of our property go and allowing the blackberry to completely take over (it was actually because we didn’t have enough time to get on top of it, and then a season or two later it was really too late) but since getting the block ready for sale (and it has finally just been listed, hooray!) we had to hire in days of machinery and human labour to rip all of it out to bare ground, and had even more machinery cart truckloads of green “waste” away to the local tip so the place can look tidy and marketable. We refused to poison the ground for 25 years but who knows what the new owners will do? So disheartening, and yet that is what is expected in this sterile-making society, except that we seem to sterilise every other living thing except ourselves. Babies keep popping out in my circle of friends (the children of friends), it feels more and more disingenuous whenever I offer the expected congratulatory platitudes, on one hand I totally understand and am happy for the parents’ happiness but I also feel very sorry for the most difficult of times ahead for the young families.

On the other end of the life scale, I am in great favour of being home-composted if that is at all possible. We have three huge compost bins that process our kitchen scraps and deposits from our humanure toilet. It reaches a temperature of 65-70C when activated so that should cook my bones just fine along with turning everything else into humus after about a year or so. We pop in dead wallaby found on the property and they completely disappear, so I don’t see why a human corpse wouldn’t do the same after some time. But in reality, at the height of the collapse catastrophe I think there will just be bodies piled up wherever they lie and most likely they will be burned in piles, and not buried in mass graves for the extra physical effort that would require. If one really wants to delve into gruesome history of the worst famines, there is a very obvious option for a recently deceased body.

Oh dear, how did I end on such a salubrious note when it was all fun and games in the beginning?

Namaste, everyone.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Gaia gardener
March 1, 2024 12:23 am

The end of your comment made me laugh 🙂

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 2, 2024 4:32 am

Hi Rob,

Thank you for your kind appreciation of the ordeal (and that is truly the best descriptor even though we have now nearly reached a fulfilling conclusion), it means so much to have your encouragement and support through these past couple months just knowing you were all here whenever I needed to just decompress stress.

You are very insightful, yes this means our family is moving closer to our goal of being all together in one climate zone full time, but it will still take a few years as my husband is not quite retirement ready but if need be and we are out of prep time, we can still confidently move to the subtropical location and hopefully make the best of our lives there.

My mother is doing her best to cope, moods still swinging like a pendulum but I suppose that’s to be expected given the scope of the upheaval. Funnily enough she is quite aware of the up-coming collapse and doom and fear (lifelong) has been fuelling her neediness and dependency upon us, a constant energy sucking vortex. She has the usual denial that the effects aren’t going to happen to her, though. It’s interesting but both of our remaining parents (one each) seem desperate to keep living as they can whilst my husband and I, younger by a generation, don’t have anywhere near the will to live as they do. Perhaps it is because they are older that they feel their time is limited and even more precious, but really now all of us face that ticking time bomb with collapse hanging like Damocles’ sword. Both parents are religious, so that adds evidence that belief in an afterlife does nothing to mitigate fear of death, whereas we agnostics both seem very comfortable with (and even anticipatorily curious) the idea of completing our life cycle. Go figure.

If you’re interested, I’ll send you a link to the property listing when it becomes live sometime next week.

Hope you’re going well and getting through what you want to.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 9:04 am

This actually explains a lot about the last several years. If they really believe why not try to tell at least the more scientifically literate citizens about our situation. I think there are some citizens who would believe them, but unfortunately, there are many who would not.

I suspect that some, (but not all) of our leaders are at least partially aware, but just don’t speak about it publicly. If a politician were to speak openly about overshoot, they would win my vote pretty quickly.

Florian
Florian
Reply to  Stellarwind72
March 1, 2024 7:34 am

I would like to discuss this part

The challenge will be to hold onto our humanity no matter what happens.

Why? I would argue that the remaining individual is much better off as sooner as we throw this so called humanity out of the window. Or to use a quote from Georg Henrik von Wright:

“What to do when a ship carrying a hundred passengers has suddenly capsized, and only one lifeboat is available for ten people in the water? When the lifeboat is full, those who hate life will try to pull more people onto it, thus drowning everyone. Those who love and respect life will instead grab an axe and sever the hands clinging to the gunwales.”

Unpleasant, right?

Florian
Florian
Reply to  Florian
March 1, 2024 7:45 am

My mistake, the quote is from Pentti Linkola (which is much more obvious) and not from Georg Henrik von Wright. Mea culpa. Actually Georg Henrik von Wright wrote the following reply. After that is an excerpt of Linkolas Book (Can Life Prevail?).

“[…] As to what practical conclusions to draw from realising the truth, this is a different matter. Perhaps I too would strike at the hands that are clinging to the boat, but hardly for the love of life: rather, out of fear, in an attempt to save my own skin. Perhaps, it would be a better solution for all of us to drown, a final proof of the human species’ inability to survive.”

The above letter proves how difficult it is for a great humanist to let go of the overemphasis on the value of human life. I think I can sense some fear between the lines, something I have previously encountered when discussing the issue of overpopulation. I call it the fear of breaking loose and of disgrace. People fear that if any actions are taken to limit the world population, the situation will spiral out of control and human life will somehow lose its value forever. It is also thought that after similar actions mankind will forever lose its sense of self worth by sullying its ethical values, and will be unable to restore any norms and conventions. This fear endures, regardless of how elegantly the reduction of the population might take place, were it even to occur more artlessly and discreetly than with the German gas chambers during World War II — possibly by limited nuclear strikes or through bacteriological and chemical attacks against the great inhabited centres of the globe (attacks carried out either by some trans-national body like the UN or by some small group equipped with sophisticated technology and bearing responsibility for the whole world).

In the light of human history, I find this fear to derive from an obvious misconception. Whenever wars and mutual slaughter have ceased, societies have returned to their ordinary routine after only a brief period of transition. The massive depopulation operations of Stalin and Hitler, even the most gruesome tortures perpetrated by secret police forces, when described to the world audience in detail, have not overturned our ethical norms. It is often the case, in these scenarios, that in the block next to the secret police people are writing poetry, philosophising or helping their elderly neighbour.

Our age has witnessed the gas chambers and many other atrocities. On a global scale, the main problem is not the inflation of human life, but its ever-increasing, mindless overvaluation. Emphasis on the inalienable right to life of foetuses, premature infants and the brain-dead has become a kind of collective mental illness. The same phenomenon can be observed in the absurd history of capital punishment: when there were five million people on Earth, it was a self-evident fact that the death sentence might be enforced upon the most twisted members of the human community. Now that there are five billion people, one society after another is shirking away from the execution of even the most diabolical criminals. Amnesty International bitterly complains about the few countries that still endorse capital punishment. Unrelentingly, new means of rescue are being developed, so that helicopters might be able to fish out every raving mad fisherman who has ventured into a storm with a boat made of bark, thus salvaging another unique and irreplaceable individual from the embrace of the waves. The mind boggles.

In themselves, legalising euthanasia, re-instating capital punishment and abol- ishing overzealous rescue services would not have any significant impact on the population growth. Yet, as a matter of principle, these actions would be ex- tremely important. As long as distorted practices prevail, an insane respect towards human life will reign: thus, even the possibility of a solution to the population explosion will be lost, and all lifeboats will sink into the depths of the sea.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 10:25 am

Pentti Linkola is quite blunt here, but he does have some serious point. I also think we undervalue animal life and natural ecosystems.

Emphasis on the inalienable right to life of foetuses, premature infants and the brain-dead has become a kind of collective mental illness.

That ideology is called the sanctity of life. It is premised on a delusion of human exceptionalism. Other than that, it is hard to justify such positions scientifically or philosophically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctity_of_life.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Florian
March 1, 2024 11:07 am

I don’t understand Linkola’s argument.

This society will go a long way to extend the life of brain-dead patients. That is true.
But, at the same time there is contempt for human life in many other realms: the tobacco industry, proxy wars, drug side-effects, toxic food…

To me, something more subtle and simpler is at play. It can’t be generalized that way.

Both humanists and idealists like Linkola (what would be his ideology called: deep ecologism ? Naturalism ? Ecofascism) seem to consider only one aspect of reality.

If we are simply not in control, it doesn’t really matter what ideology we believe in. So rather, maybe, it is the case that we adhere to the ideology which lets us think we are in control. We are fooling ourselves. Or rather we have stories to guide us, which explain in an uplifting way that which cannot be avoided, which frame our behaviour (we don’t even notice the discrepancy between the story and reality while it works).

So humanism was good on the way up, deep naturalism (or some other really nice name which will pop up along the way) will be good on the way down.

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Florian
March 2, 2024 2:35 am

Hi there Florian,

Thank you for sharing that vignette that asks us to use our moral compass for direction. These never-to-happen-in-real-life thought scenarios are a safe way for us to explore choices that we might surprise ourselves with. I would argue that those who love and respect life would instead voluntarily launch themselves overboard so as to give another a chance to save themselves. One of my most fervent desires in hanging onto my own sense of humanity is that I hope may be able to serve humanity in a final offering by doing something akin to this. I have had an absolutely amazing run in my 53 years, with fate placing me in the most prosperous and secure time and places in all of human history. Countless generations of members of my own species never had, nor will have, the chance to experience the freedoms, abundance, and opportunities I’ve enjoyed, many at their expense. Every night before falling asleep, my husband and I say to each other how lucky we’ve been and how we cannot ask for more, come what may, so that each nightly ‘death’ becomes a declaration of gratitude and acceptance of the times we have been given.

Namaste, friends.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Gaia gardener
March 2, 2024 7:40 am

Gaia,
Thank you for this post. it really resonated with me. I am despondent most of the time because I realize we are at the height of technological civilization and I despair that the knowledge we have obtained about the universe and how everything is ordered (while being imperfect) will probably be lost in time and extinction.
I go to sleep every night thinking that I may not awake again (being significantly older than you) but I am comforted by the fact that I will cease to exist and will not be aware as I was not aware of the 14 billion years that preceded my existence.
Thanks again for this post.
AJ

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  AJ
March 2, 2024 10:45 pm

Hi there AJ,

We do see one another here and that is a rare comfort I know we all cherish. I am so glad to have found Rob’s site and add to my blessings that if I do wake again each day, I can count on spending some time in refuge and solace here. At least for the time being which is all we have anyway. From what I’ve learned of your life over these past few years, I am in respectful awe of your sincerity, sensitivity and sense of justice, coupled with patience, perseverance, tolerance, and acceptance of that you cannot change, especially in the family circle, but steadfast effort and not shirking often uncomfortable physical and emotional work to amend that which you can. I have learned much from your example and it has buoyed me to make a better effort with my own circumstances. Thank you.

So glad we both woke up again this morning to share this conversation, and hey, isn’t it soon your birthday again, and you are turning 71 if I’m not mistaken? All good innings and hopefully more to come.

All the best to you and your family.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Gaia gardener
March 3, 2024 3:43 am

Thanks Gaia,
I empathize with the difficulty of dealing with your mother. Hopefully you can find some value in the time you have left with her.
Yes, I will soon be 71. Time still here is getting shorter. With collapse and the Damocles’ Sword of Alzheimer’s hanging over my head I don’t want to be here too many more years. I try to enjoy every day (but after weeks of no sun and endless rain it gets hard;)).
You have been an inspiration and I just wish I had moved away from the U.S. years ago (but then I was young, stupid and collapse unaware).
Enjoy the summer, winter is coming.
AJ

Stellarwind72
Reply to  AJ
March 3, 2024 7:24 am

Enjoy the summer, winter is coming.

Soon the phrase “winter is coming” will be replaced by “summer is coming”, due to wet bulb temperatures.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Stellarwind72
March 3, 2024 8:27 am

Unless, and possibly more probable, Nuclear Winter visits all 8 billion of us first.
AJ

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Gaia gardener
March 3, 2024 4:54 am

The same goes for you, dear Gaïa gardener.
Thank you 🙂

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Gaia gardener
March 2, 2024 9:48 am

Yes 🙂

Stellarwind72
February 29, 2024 6:58 pm

https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/magas-plan-to-steal-the-2024-election-legally
MAGA’s Plan to “Legally” Steal the 2024 Election

Trump Republicans are committed to abandoning America’s historic embrace of democracy.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 7:15 pm

I’ll keep that in mind for future posts. Thanks.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 2, 2024 7:19 am

The midwesterndoctor.com’s summaries were published on Zerohedge today. Hopefully that means they get much wider play. I agree that Senator Johnson is an exemplary leader, even if he is a Republican.
AJ

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 2:33 pm

I understand it but the tendency to focus on birth rate as the way to lower population seems to be a blinkered approach. If the planet gets down to 100 million through dropping birth rates, the three cities will be populated primarily by a very old population with few young people. Nothing that Alpert envisages has any chance of success with most people being over 60, say.

Just as very few even mention the population problem, even fewer seem to want to entertain the idea that increasing life expectancy is not a good thing for any society, ultimately.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 2:51 pm

Oh. So there is a limit to how old humans can be? Is there a service to allow a peaceful, painless death for them? What does he want medical services for, since that tends to increase life expectancy?

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 29, 2024 2:52 pm

He was condemning birth choices in his comment, hence my comment.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 6:39 pm

Alpert’s plan isn’t in motion, so there is no “already.” My point is that a functioning society will need a good proportion of young people. If he’s got that sorted then good, though it will still not be sustainable.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 3:09 pm

What are these new city states built with? Do we use fossil fuels to build them? How do they ‘gather’ metals to be recycled from other places that still have lots of old people in them? How big and how many factories need to be built in these new city states to produce the ‘stuff’ of modernity for the selected people?
What’s the economic system of the new cities based upon if not current economics? Who builds or supplies what bits of the new cities?

I’m afraid the plan, being broad without thinking of the detail is doomed to failure before getting to first base. I’m with Mike on this, it’s just not possible with the way humans are wired. Cities are what they are because of the way humans are ‘wired’ into the growth and profit motive (ie MPP). Take away growth and profit and why would anyone do anything for anyone else in these new cities??

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 6:56 pm

As I put in the other thread we have going about Jack Alpert’s plan (could you combine the 2 if possible, please), the only way to keep modernity of any type is with the complexity we have. Maintaining the level of complexity using things like computers, mobile phones, TV’s etc will not be possible with much lower populations and energy use. We take thousands of factories from around the world to make all the small specialist parts in bulk quantities for the system to work.

None of these factories could survive on small runs of anything. The raw materials needed by all these separate factories come from mines from all over the planet. Most minute quantity metals cannot be recycled, they get discarded in the slag from recovery of main metals like copper and silver, and it’s still done with fossil fuels. Even the hydrometallurgical route using acids, we find the source of the materials come from fossil fuels..

Even with a much smaller population, we’d need mines all over the world and still need oil to do the mining and transporting, plus ‘settlements’ all over the globe at these locations. What happens when the mines and oil fields run out? you need geologists to scour the planet for more..

If we think ‘long term’ in terms of a million years plus, which is still short term on geologic time scales, then Jack’s plan falls to pieces. At best we get a few generations of salvaging as much as possible from other areas, but that’s it. Perhaps with collapse we get something like Jack’s plan happening anyway with a few strong city states taking from everyone else, until they also collapse when there is nothing left to salvage.

The part of Jack’s plan I agree with is getting the population down as much as possible as quickly as possible and I suppose there has to be the ‘carrot’ of having modernity continuing for some to make it seem plausible. Realistically though, there is nothing that can save modernity, once the resources are used, they are gone and so is modernity. I suspect all hopes of ‘saving’ something, even the good bits of modernity (and likely civilization itself) are just the denial gene kicking in…

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 1:47 am

I love those videos and have the book, though I’m not sure I’d ever use those techniques. Stuff like the above is extremely time consuming and not all areas might have appropriate resources for the various technologies but I hope that kind of knowledge can hang around. It will remain primitive technology, though.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 4:53 pm

This bit from Alice Friedmann’s latest post, pretty much kills off Jack Alpert’s plan for any type of modernity, which includes today’s phones, computers, etc, which is what most people would mean by maintaining modernity…

“A 1960s telephone, complete with a rotary dial, at most would have required around 10 raw materials, such as aluminum and zinc. A 1990s mobile phone contained another 19 raw materials, including copper, cobalt, and lead. Today’s smartphones have more than 50 raw materials in the smartphone’s battery, casing, screen, and electronic. All of these have to be mined, creating tremendous pollution from tailings left behind and processing the ore: Aluminum, Americum, Antimony, Barium, Beryllium, Bismuth, Bromine, Calcium, Carbon, Chlorine, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Erbium, Iron, Fluorine, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Indium, Iodine, Iridium, Oead, Lithium, Magnesium, Manganese, Neodymium (what makes your phone vibrate), Neon, Nickel, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Palladium, Phosphorus, Platinum, Potassium, Rubidium, Scandium, Silicon, Silver, Sodium, Strontium, Sulphur, Tellurium, Thallium, Titanium, Tungsten, Vanadium, Yttrium, Zinc, Zirconium. The touchscreen is thanks to traces of ITO — indium tin oxide.”

There are only a few of those minerals recovered by recycling, most end up dumped because we have no way of recovering them, being minute quantities in each device. We’d need the mines from around the world continuing for the 3 cities, which means settlements and populations everywhere, plus food gathering from local environment etc..

Without modernity, having 3 large cities is impossible anyway, as we couldn’t get enough food into those cities, unless the populations were in the thousands not millions. Could anyone ‘sell’ just 3 medieval type cities to the world’s population as a whole? Or would people prefer to believe in the fairytales of ongoing modernity and all it’s conveniences?

How far ‘back’ (as in what type of era), would we have to go to retain ‘something’ of modernity for the long term? I’m afraid that whenever I look at the nitty gritty details of anything we do, it turns out to be unsustainable in the long term.

We have arrived at our modern civilization by always going forward, using more resources in the process, by growing and giving every individual the chance or possibility of being better off by ‘working hard’. (or at least selling the delusion that they could be better off).

The complexity we have only works for a large population, that can perform every task required in modern civilization. We can’t just cut out 50-70% or maybe more of the existing system and expect it to continue functioning. Take away cruise ships, fancy cars and holidays from those that can afford them and what incentive do top nuclear physicists, or surgeons, or statistics professors have to work long hours to keep on top of their fields? People work as hard as they do and/or become educated over a decades to get to the top of their fields to ‘get ahead’ for themselves and their families.

Jack Alpert’s plan is also one of denial of reality. It’s an entire system we have, not just ‘parts’ that can be saved. Humans have had civilizations for thousands of years, with one commonality, they all failed. Now we expect a much larger version, that encompasses the entire world to have a different result, which we all know on this website is not going to work or happen.

However believing we can save a small percentage of modern civilization in a couple of small areas so we don’t have a damaging effect on the ecosphere, is just another form of denial of the reality, that it took an entire world’s worth of resources to get to modern civilization and would need the entire world’s worth of resources (people included) to maintain it. Perhaps trying to promote that type of plan is just part of the bargaining phase of the grief of knowing how far we are into overshoot.

Don’t worry about the combining threads, I was only asking if it was easily possible.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
March 1, 2024 6:17 pm

I guess that’s a reasonable strategy. Sell a solution that the masses could accept, but one which has measurably less impact on the plant. Implement it. When it becomes clear that it is no solution, with the planet’s life support systems, and life itself, deteriorating further, then another approach can be tried. Again, this lessens the impact and retains some aspects of modernity. Until that doesn’t work. Rinse and repeat. The only problem with this (other than humans are a species) is that the environment worsens at every stage, even if there are small wins along the way. But it may be the only way to get people on board to a lower standard of living.

Having said that, I don’t suppose enough people would get on board until the damage is so severe that it would really take a complete collapse to start convincing the majority that something must be done. Even then, I wouldn’t be optimistic.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Hideaway
March 1, 2024 6:23 pm

Exactly Rob!! We are clearly in a predicament, with no-one wanting to realize it. I’m just as bad, making sure we have enough supplies of all types for a period of time. But that’s all it is, a period of time, certainly not ‘long term’.

Basically, our predicament fully explains the Fermi Paradox of why we haven’t been able to contact aliens. Given physics, chemistry and biology are probably the same throughout the universe, then any life on other planets that reached our level of civilization, inevitably collapsed just like we will, for exactly the same reasons.

Therefore if they did send out radio signals, it was only for a short time of a couple of hundred years at best.

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 1:55 pm

Covid is absolutely over. The only people left who need to get their heads around this are Canadians and a few obsessed USA-Americans. comment image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_deaths#/media/File:Timeline_of_daily_new_confirmed_COVID-19_deaths_worldwide.svg

Mike Roberts
Reply to  monk
February 29, 2024 2:38 pm

As Alan Urban said, hundreds of deaths per day from COVID-19 is now normal.

(Not sure why the cases graph is shown; that’s largely an irrelevant number with so little testing going on)

monk
monk
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 29, 2024 2:46 pm

Look at the other graph in the link – total covid deaths world wide. I just showed that graph because it is interesting

Mike Roberts
Reply to  monk
February 29, 2024 2:48 pm

I did look at that other graph, hence my comment about hundreds of deaths per day being the new normal.

monk
monk
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 29, 2024 2:55 pm

It’s not a new normal, it’s just normal. That’s my point.

monk
monk
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 29, 2024 2:55 pm

I’m saying I think he’s wrong

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 2:00 pm

Maybe I’m a big meany or I’m just getting old, but I’m pretty confident you could write the same essay in any of the recent decades. Apart from some recent climatic changes, there’s nothing new in any of this.

monk
monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 12:14 pm

The empirical data shows the rate of innovation has been declining since the 1920s if I remember correctly. I need to dig that research up again

Anonymous
Anonymous
February 29, 2024 5:25 am

Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull on population

monk
monk
February 28, 2024 5:30 pm

One of New Zealand’s media outlets (Newshub) is being closed down by their American owners (Warner Bros).
Newshub received public funding to spout covid propaganda under the Ardern leadership. It must have backfired for them as their viewership no longer can support the 300-strong organisation. While there is some sympathy for people losing jobs, many of us can’t help but feel Newshub deserves to be closed down. They were brutal in publicly shaming and witch-hunting anyone who dared to even suggest a different point of view.
This change will leave New Zealand with only one TV news broadcaster (state-owned).

monk
monk
February 28, 2024 5:04 pm

LOL civilization really must be going down the gurgler. New Zealand unable to handle a technical glitch with the leap year. Imagine if there was a Y2K nowadays, we’d all die LOL

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/02/29/leap-year-glitch-takes-down-pay-at-the-pumps-around-country/

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 6:52 pm

I would argue that there is no long-term sustainable human population. Humans are too clever for their own good. 100m would be a good start but it would never stay that low (unless there are long-term environmental limits to how high it could rise, then it would probably crash).

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 8:52 pm

So far, I have watched about 2/3 of the interview. So far, I think the interview is quite interesting. I was into astronomy when I was younger (maybe you could tell by my screen name). Speaking of astronomy, there will be a solar eclipse visible in North America in April.comment image

For most of human history, our population was below 100 million. 55:25 I think that sometime in the next few decades we will see a wet bulb event in a densely populated region. Such an event will put an enormous strain on the electric grid and rolling black outs will happen. Unfortunately, I fear that it will take a tragedy of unprecedented scale to break through the denial and delusions.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 9:03 pm

One of the interesting aspects of these interviews, is that every now and then you get a glimpse of what Nate really thinks of the future. At one point he stated he’s more worried about where his potatoes would come from in 5-7 years, when they were starting to talk ‘long term’.

Overall, here is another professor that ‘gets it’, with regards the polycrisis, but still has the denial gene to the extent of hoping or looking for a positive outcome and survival of some form of modernity.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 10:55 pm

Apparently, mentioning the need for population reduction is outside of the Overton window, even for Nate’s audience. There is the Real Green New Deal, which aims for a population of 1 billion. https://www.realgnd.org/citizens-warning. If we don’t have a population plan, nature will come up with one for us and it won’t be very pretty.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 1:07 am

Perhaps Nate realises that modernity is unsustainable. Doesn’t Alpert think modernity could continue with a vastly lower population?

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 29, 2024 3:49 am

There is a real probability of that Mike, however I doubt he would ever say it out loud. Jack Alpert’s plan does involve continued modernity, which is it’s only selling point, however he misses the point that the complexity of modernity only comes with 8 billion people including billions of poor that can still afford a mobile phone.

It’s a combination of large population and huge energy and resource use that gives us the modern complexity. Take away any one and the system simplifies, rapidly. A much smaller population means we can’t have the modern conveniences we all currently enjoy, even if there were enough resources and energy. As it’s the energy and resources that go first, then complexity unwinds taking the population down with it. That assumes it’s not a catastrophic climate event that gets us first.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 2:00 pm

I don’t find the continuance of modernity attractive. I like the idea of rewilding though. Hydroelectric plants are ecocidal and temporary; they are completely unsustainable, as are all aspects of modernity. If medical science and application continued, population would start to increase again then sometime down the line we’d be in almost exactly the same position as now.

I agree with Hideaway that the level of population envisaged (and the much lower energy availability) would not support the complexity needed to maintain modernity.

You can’t take the species out of humans.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 2:06 pm

You are correct. When I was writing that it was from the point of view of a techno-cornucopian.
I fully agree with the re-wilding of great areas of agricultural land.

The part of Jack’s plan that wont work is the modernity based on just hydro electricity. That implies all machinery is electric, including everything industrial, agricultural and for mining. While the 3 cities may work for a couple of thousand years, it’s not really ‘long term’.

I did a calculation for a response to a recycling question on another forum about copper. If we assume 95% recyclability over a 50 yeartime frame, and in the next 20 years we get to 2 billion tonnes in existence (not going to happen), then after 100 generations or 5,000 years, ‘we’ are down to less than 10 million tonnes of useful copper left.

My question for Jack is how do we mine copper in really low grades, in isolated places around the world, based on limited hydro power in 5000 years time? Likewise for every other metal and mineral. That’s before we get to not so minor issues of how do we recycle metals that are ‘composites’ without high level heat from fossil fuels?

The more I think of it, even writing this post, the more impossible any type of modernity with just 3 cities of about 33m people each becomes, of for that matter a city of 33m people. How much hydro electricity would be needed for each of these cities in the manufacture of everything needed. How would all the materials be moved? How much land without fertilizer needs to be used? Suddenly we are talking a couple of hundred kilometers to move ‘stuff’ all based on nearby hydro power? How big are the hydro electric dams? Dam the Amazon to produce the power for one city??

On the surface it sounds like a great plan to maintain some modernity, but the nitty gritty details totally kills it.

I’ve come to the conclusion that modernity, that requires cities, is impossible in the long term because of energy use that needs to grow exponentially on a finite planet due to entropy and dissipation of all the metals needed for modernity.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Hideaway
February 29, 2024 2:43 pm

TL;DR
Modernity is inherently unsustainable, due to declining mineral grades.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 5:35 pm

I’ve acquainted myself with Jack’s plan several times, and every time I think about the nitty gritty, it doesn’t work. Also fantasy stuff like fusion will not be possible in a very limited world, hell, we can’t do fusion with an entire world’s resources and efforts from millions of scientists now, what hope with only 1.5% of the scientists of today (from all 3 cities)?

Fusion is another energy sink, even if ITER was to work. What most, and certainly Jack doesn’t understand, is that complexity has it’s own high energy cost. It’s the same misunderstanding most people have in the energy cost of building something like a nuclear reactor.

You don’t just take 1000 people from a H&G village in PNG to build and operate the nuclear plant. The people needed must be highly trained. But we don’t just take 1,000 people from H&G societies and highly train them either.

We send ALL our young to schools, hundreds of millions (billions?) of them. From these millions, not all make it to senior levels of high school. Of those that do, only 10% choose to do physics or high level math. Of those only a small percentage go on to study physics at University. From this paper….

Click to access Physics-Students-in-UK-Universities-HESA-Data-Brief.pdf

… only 1% of university students study physics. Of that low percentage only a very small number go on to do a Phd.. How many go on to do their Phd’s in nuclear physics? very very few….Overall the pool of those expert enough to design, build and operate a nuclear power plant are few, yet we started by educating millions.

It’s exactly the same for every high end aspect of the modernity we have, there is a huge energy and people cost of getting the expertise needed and this energy cost is ignored by everyone including Jack Alpert…

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 29, 2024 6:51 pm

I can’t agree more that population reduction is essential to any plan. But the plan needs to be realistic to have any chance of success. What does sustainability mean? That is the key question. For me, it’s simple. No non-renewable resources (of course, existing non-renewable materials could be used for a very long time, with low population, but the plan would need to eventually move to having no new such materials). Renewable resources only utilised at or, preferably, below their renewal rates. Minimal environmental damage. To me, these basic requirements mean that only a hunter-gatherer society is possible, as a sustainable society. But humans being a clever species will never stay that way.

No humans is probably the only sustainable plan. But assuming there was some way to stop humans acting like a species, I wish all plans for future living arrangements could be realistic.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Hideaway
February 29, 2024 7:29 pm

Mike, I agree with this, the only chance of sustainability is for hunter gatherer type lifestyles, but humans are humans and now that knowledge of ‘something more’ exists, then humans will always strive for more, meaning that humans are not part of the long term sustainability of life on this planet.

Because anything like Jack Alpert’s plan will be rejected out of hand by the majority of people, then where we actually go is further into overshoot until eventual collapse, most likely taking every form of macro fauna with us, leading to our own extinction, from lack of the hunter bit of hunter gathering. Also modern human’s brain size is about 10% smaller than humans from before the agricultural period. Are we smart enough to survive as hunter gatherers??

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 6:47 pm

She said “some” client scientists have lost touch. The ones that say the climate sensitivity doesn’t matter either way. She didn’t exactly name them, apart from Zeke Hausfather and Andrew Dessler.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 1:51 pm

Many cities will cities will default on their debt and so will the Federal government. It was a serious mistake to cut taxes under Ronald Reagan.

Stellarwind72
February 27, 2024 3:13 pm

Canada should be prepared for a large number of American refugees crossing the border in the event that Trump wins in November.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/11/take-trump-seriously-when-he-vows-to-build-the-camps
Consider the implications of seven thing we already know.

1) Trump plans to build a giant network of “detention” camps and empower the federal government to round up millions of people without any due process

2) Trump insists that Democrats and leftists imperil the foundations of civilization, and has promised to “root out” the “threats from within.”

3) Trump is an aspiring dictator who would have simply defied the election result and remained in power if he had been able to.

4) Trump is now angry and vengeful, and determined to punish those who forced him from office.

5) Trump and the Republicans have a sweeping radical plan called Project 2025, part of which involves purging tens of thousands of civil servants from the federal government to eliminate potential opposition to his plans.

6) Trump has no qualms about killing people without trial and openly encourages police brutality.

7) Trump is beating Joe Biden in the polls, meaning he is currently on track to be the next president.

These facts, taken together, should make us very worried that we are on the brink of a fascist nightmare. There is a tendency to assume Donald Trump is clownish, ineffectual, and not actually very committed to following through on his stated agenda. It’s true that Trump doesn’t have much ideological commitment to the Republican platform. But he is also deeply vengeful and hates being humiliated or seen as weak. I do not think we should be surprised if the second term is very different from the first.

To those skeptical that Trump would actually round up those he deems “internal threats” and put them in camps, I’d like you to consider how rapidly things can change in a situation of national emergency or panic. Of course, after 9/11, torturing and indefinitely detaining people was used as a tactic against perceived enemies. But remember, too, what happened after Pearl Harbor in 1941. The most liberal Democratic president we have ever had established internment camps and rounded up Japanese Americans for indefinite imprisonment.

As Someone who lives in the U.S., I think that Biden should step down as the democratic nominee, solely to keep Trump out of the White House.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Stellarwind72
February 27, 2024 3:35 pm

Good points. One of the most remarkable things to me is that it actually seems possible for a person (I use the term loosely) like Trump to be elected into office. I wonder if a more democratic election system (where every vote carried the same weight) would ever let Trump in (he lost his last two elections in the popular vote) but we’ll never know.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 27, 2024 8:18 pm

The current U.S. leadership is deeply flawed, but at least they aren’t threatening to round up millions of people and put them in camps. I also think Biden is slightly less bad from an overshoot/ecological perspective.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Stellarwind72
February 28, 2024 4:15 am

Correct, the current leadership just erased the southern border and invited in all the dispossessed (and criminals that might accompany them) to come. So is an invasion better that concentration camps? I don’t know. But it does seem like the “cream” of humanity rises to the top in politics (irony)? I remember a saying in law school that “A” students became law professors, “B” students became corporate attorneys and “C” students became politicians. (Not my perception though).
Biden (dementia) and his handlers are Woke, racist, controlling thought police who love war & genocide. Trump is a populist, generally anti-war, racist, misogynist, vengeful narcissist. And the Deep State tries to control them both. Neither are better at being a leader than the other. Both are nightmares.
Democracy that doesn’t reward humility, intelligence, and rationality is doomed to fail – and we are there.
The road to collapse will not be pretty, but hopefully we could avoid nuclear winter.
AJ

Stellarwind72
Stellarwind72
Reply to  AJ
February 28, 2024 6:07 am

Given the other six things, I don’t trust Trump to stop at illegal/undocumented (whatever term you prefer) immigrants. I fear that if he gets elected, he will try to put his political opponents in those camps as well.

It is quite sad that in November, Americans will basically have a choice between Biden, Trump and a wasted vote (due to our first-past-the-post voting system). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Stellarwind72
February 28, 2024 10:36 am

I’m not sure that Trump would put his political opponents in camps. I’m sure he will seek prosecution of Biden (and his crime family), Obama and probably both Clintons (who I think probably deserve it).
And that will be fair in that they appear to be attempting to prevent him from regaining the presidency based on selective prosecution for “events” that probably were not illegal (Jan 6 (speech), document retention, property “crimes”). Idiots don’t understand that this prosecution just makes him more popular.
I think Biden is probably on the hook for bribery (and some of his family), Obama for using the government to skew the 2016 election toward Hillary, Bill for his fun with Epstein, Hillary for her attempt to screw with the 2016 election.
If Trump is guilty of anything it is for being a old stupid bellicose misogynistic narcissist.
BUT, IMHO they are both abysmal choices and one might end up president with their finger on the nuclear trigger if the powers behind Biden don’t put us all in nuclear winter before then.
RFK would be a better choice, but anyone who supports Israel is far from ideal.
I can’t think of any U.S. politician who I would want as president. Maybe Tucker Carson, Tulsi Gabbard, Edward Snowden, JHK ?
Ah, isn’t this collapse of U.S. politics just a foretaste of the future?
AJ

Stellarwind72
Reply to  AJ
February 28, 2024 12:48 pm

I’m not sure that Trump wouldn’t put his political opponents in camps.
Of the 4 people you mentioned, Tucker Carlson is too openly racist, and is also a climate change denier. I would probably vote for the 2005 JHK (based on the book the Long Emergency), but the 2024 JHK is too out there. (Many Trump supporters appear to believe that Trump was appointed by God, this suggest that his support may actually be a personality cult). I would actually like to see a debate between Biden and RFK Jr. In 2020, Bernie Sanders was my preferred candidate.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 4:06 pm

I don’t use the term “racist” lightly. Tucker Carlson has said enough things both on and off air, to make me think he is racist. Here are some of them.
Here are a few:

“Iraq is crappy place filled with semiliterate primitive monkeys” at 0:01

Here is a side by side comparison with quotes from Tucker Carlson and quotes from prominent racists.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  AJ
February 28, 2024 6:23 pm

I guess the courts will decide whether Trump’s actions were illegal though I’m pretty sure that retention and mishandling of classified documents is illegal in the US. Also, it is surely stretching it to think that Trump didn’t try everything he could to reverse the result of the last election. Some of what he did could certainly have been illegal. I also note that he lied to his supporters when he said he’d be there with them, marching to the Capitol.

Yes, it could well be a foretaste of the future.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 29, 2024 3:26 am

Not sure if anything he did with respect to the election is illegal in the U.S. We do have a first amendment that protects all political speech. Actions are another thing and arguably he avoided those. The document retention is a gray area of the law, since he was president he could have declassified everything before he took them. His actions pale before Biden’s retention of documents (he was only a V.P. and Senator and had no ability to declassify or Hillary’s illegal actions with respect to her home server while Sec of State). This is just Lawfare against Trump.
I really can’t believe I’m defending Trump because I detest him, but not as much as I detest having my vote stolen by warmonger Obama and genocide Joe (both of whom I voted for) and who both are trying their best to subvert democracy in favor of the Deep State.
AJ

Mike Roberts
Reply to  AJ
February 29, 2024 1:49 pm

I may be totally wrong but, from things said by some I respect, Biden cooperated fully in returning documents once they were found. Trump prevaricated and tried to conceal documents, it taking several attempts to get the documents back and they weren’t exactly kept in secure locations. Biden also held some kind of official public office after leaving the White House so he may have still had security clearance. There is no indication that Trump declassified those documents and I don’t think he’s actually claimed that. Also, the number of documents was far greater, in Trump’s case.

Trump’s attempts to claim that the President is above the law is worrying. If the SCOTUS agrees with him then, if he gets in in November, he’ll have carte blanche to do whatever he likes.

Personally, I don’t place as much emphasis on supposedly secret documents as the US government does but the law is the law, as well as being an ass.

I’m with you on your attitude towards your last 3 presidents. I would extend it to at least the last 4, though. If I’d been able to vote, it would always have gone to a third candidate or spoiled.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Stellarwind72
February 28, 2024 1:12 am

I don’t understand the reasoning of either party thinking either of these 2 candidates would make an intelligent president. It most likely means there is a lot I don’t understand about American politics, then I think about my own dealings with high up levels….

Going back over 40 years I knew a minister of the state government here in Victoria Australia. He was a very simple, humble man. People often had to repeat an idea or concept to him several times before he understood (or pretended to). He definitely had a good heart and was a genuinely nice person. Over the course of 5-6 years the incumbent government had crises after crises with lots of different ministers being caught out in conflicts of interest or just straight out corruption.

None involved the person I knew, if fact he ended up being a minister for a number of portfolios at the same time including treasury. A bit of last man standing.. That party lost big at the next election.

It did occur to me at the time; how on earth could this person be in charge of so much, with so little understanding of most of it!! It was only later that I watched the UK Yes Minister TV series, and 2 decades later was dealing with ministers and the top level of public service. The public servants wanted all the ministers to be really dumb, so they could manipulate them easily..

Perhaps what we are seeing with US politics is what those who really want to be in charge, from more minor positions, to make sure the public only has these 2 options to choose from, most likely both easily persuaded to any particular action by those high up in the food chains from business to public servants.. In US case Wall street/Treasury, Pharma/FDA. It’s all revolving doors so those from the top of both groups (and other similar ones) probably want dumb presidents and don’t care which of the 2 get in….

monk
monk
Reply to  Hideaway
February 28, 2024 5:24 pm

There has been a couple of scandals recently in New Zealand of public servants publicly undermining our elected representatives.

Florian
Florian
February 27, 2024 2:27 am

French President Emmanuel Macron no longer rules out the deployment of ground troops in Ukraine by his country in order to prevent a Russian victory in Ukraine. Macron said this after the conclusion of a Ukraine aid conference in Paris on Monday evening. The meeting was attended by more than 20 heads of state and government.

Talking about escalation, right?

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 3:50 am

Yes. And most of the other countries are saying that they won’t send troops to Ukraine. Maybe Macron is feeling irrelevant?
AJ

Mike Roberts
February 26, 2024 8:04 pm

Chris, you’re right that just about everything we do has a negative consequence on the environment. But then the same is true (to a lesser extent) of all other species. Even plants can run wild and smother other plants, in some circumstances. However, all other species seems to be able to eventually live in a kind of balance, in each ecosystem. That balance, though, may be found by some species being excluded through predation or food limitations. The balance itself will also always be temporary until something perturbs that ecosystem (e.g. tectonic movement, a one in a thousand year event, or asteroid strike), in which case a new balance is eventually found.

But humans have overcome predation and food limits because we’re clever. We are now the perturbation that all ecosystems on the planet are experiencing. As you say, there is nothing we can do that doesn’t do harm in some way. I wouldn’t characterise it as evil but some may use that term in a subjective way. There is no way to live in this civilisation that can help restore a balance. Nature will have to eventually work its magic to restore a temporary balance, though it’s not clear how depleted such ecosystems will be. In some deep period of time there will likely be abundant biodiversity. How deep? I don’t know. Probably at least hundreds of thousands of years.

I like the idea of being composted, though, after other species have had their fill. That will ultimately be the way humans are recycled and I wish it was easier to do that now. Why on earth does it cost money for my heirs to be able to dig a hole and bury me? I did exactly that for my dog, last year, and a Nikau Palm is growing on him. In fact most of our expired pets have plants growing on them.

scarr0w
Reply to  Mike Roberts
February 28, 2024 5:53 am

Getting back to the original topic of this post- green burials will be another aspect of our changed lifestyles as descent progresses. I’m lucky enough to live in an area where simple interment is becoming an option.
https://www.thresholdcarecircle.org

I will be buried on our little farm when the time comes. Planning ahead is essential, or else the “system” will take over at a tough time for family to act independently.

The movement overall is growing, perhaps there is an effort emerging near you?

Mike Roberts
Reply to  scarr0w
February 28, 2024 6:06 pm

There are companies in NZ that do natural burials but in cemeteries that end up as restored woodland. Seems cheap, too, unless a funeral director is engaged.

paqnation
Reply to  scarr0w
March 1, 2024 7:27 pm

Hey scarrow. So true that without pre-planning, the “system” ends up winning with a costly, environmental damaging, business as usual, burial/cremation. I was checking out that Threshold Care Circle site and they definitely seem to be one of the “good guys”.

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 27, 2024 11:40 am

Ron Johnson on climate change.
Republican Senator Says Climate Change Only Sucks If You’re in Africa
https://newrepublic.com/post/172224/republican-senator-says-climate-change-good-unless-in-africa

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 27, 2024 2:47 pm

Technically, it’s never too late to do anything about climate change. The less GHGs we put into the atmosphere, the lower the final equilibrium temperature will be. But, you’re right in the sense that the changes now set in motion will result in what could be called climate catastrophe, no matter what we do from now.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 27, 2024 3:21 pm

To be honest, Rob, I think it’s better to stay silent because I’m not really informed about all of the ins and outs of the issue, in all of its aspects. It seems to me that some of the contrarians who were lauded early on have sunk back into the background with perhaps some of their bolder statements now seen to be false (e.g. the deaths of millions within a couple of years, from the vaccines) and others have even backtracked. Is it all a scam to control us? Is it not a scam but an opportunity to reduce populations covertly? Is it all a money making scheme? But isn’t everything in our capitalist system?

We have a population problem (which exacerbates other problems) so isn’t anything that can increase the death rate to be lauded? If so, sadly, in NZ, it doesn’t seem to be doing the job.

I don’t know why my silence on what you see as covid crimes should trouble you. Most of what I say on the issue seems to anger you so my silence should be less troubling than my uninformed comments.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 27, 2024 11:08 pm

Rumble is blocked in France, the video was removed from youtube.

There is censorship. But is it partisan censorship or total censorship? In that I mean, are there two powers at war or only one building artificial division amongst minds? (Basically cosmopolitans/liberal aka woke/city/pro-progress/atheist/pro-climate-change/pro-renewables/vegan/exploitative/hierarchical… vs. nationalists/racists/country/traditionalists/religious/anti-climate-change/pro-oil/meat-eater/exploitative/hierarchical…, or just the machine vs. life?)
Anyway, found it here:
https://www.ntd.com/sen-ron-johnson-leads-roundtable-discussion-federal-health-agencies-and-the-covid-cartel-what-are-they-hiding_975015.html

Is that the one?
I would like to listen to it, but the current collapse info flux seems to constantly increase and is greater than my ability to assimilate it (and it’s 4 hours long)… Probably I will stick to overshoot being the first driver of current events.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Charles
February 27, 2024 11:14 pm

I remember someone saying we should be extra-cautious of the saviours. Because the villains, we know they don’t want us good and they are easy to spot.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
February 28, 2024 9:48 am

Thank you.