Radical Reality (by Hideaway) and Radical Acceptance (by B)

Today’s post includes a recent sobering comment on overshoot reality by un-Denial regular Hideaway that I thought deserved more visibility, and a new essay on acceptance by B, who has recently emerged as one of the best writers about human overshoot.

The ideas of Hideaway and B complement some of the recent discussions here about acceptance and the nature of our species.

P.S. I did not receive permission from B to re-post his essay but I’m hoping that since un-Denial is not monetized he will not object, and I will of course remove the essay if B expresses concern.

By Hideaway: On Radical Reality

The human enterprise of modernity and 8.1+ billion humans is going down. Reduction in available energy is the trigger and there is nothing we can do to stop it, or make it less unpleasant, or save the macrofauna from extinction.

As we build more energy machines of any type, their output increases overall energy available, and used, providing this happens faster than the retirement of old energy producing machines. Over the last few decades we, as in humanity in it’s entirety, have increased fossil fuel use developing more, tearing up the environment more, while increasing the build of renewables.

On a world wide scale, we have not replaced any fossil fuel use, we have just increased all energy use with more fossil fuels being part of that increase, and renewables being part of the increase. At some point growing energy use must stop, unless we make the planet uninhabitable for all life, which means we stop anyway.

Because of our economic system, as soon as we stop growing energy production and use, the price of energy goes up, and we go into recession/depression. It becomes impossible to build ‘new’ stuff of any kind once energy use declines, unless we take the energy from other users, for our ‘new’ builds.

Building more renewables, batteries, EVs, etc., currently means using more fossil fuels to build it all. There is no realistic attempt to build it all with electricity from renewables, nor is that possible. If we diverted existing renewable energy production to, for example, a new mine, then that renewable energy, removed from a city, would have to be made up by increasing fossil fuel generated electricity for the city.

If we ‘ran’ the new mine from new renewables, then these have to be built first, meaning we need the mine for the minerals to build the renewables, or we take minerals from existing users, elsewhere. It’s all just more, more, more and none of the proponents of renewables, including major green organizations want to acknowledge it.

The circular economy can’t work as we cannot physically recycle everything, plus we would need to build all the recycling facilities. If we were to try and do this without increasing total energy use, where does the energy come from to build these new recycling facilities? Other energy users? For the last couple of centuries it’s always come from ‘growth’, especially in energy use. None of us, nor our parents or grandparents, have known a world where the amount of energy available to humanity does anything other than grow.

Because of losses of all materials due to entropy and dissipation into the environment, we will always need mining, of ever lower ore grades, meaning an increasing energy use for mining. It is simply not possible to maintain output from mines once we go to zero energy growth, unless the energy comes from other uses, and users.

Once energy production growth stops, the price of all energy rises, because we need energy production to go up just to maintain the system, as population grows, ore grades decline, etc. If energy production was to fall, the price becomes higher, making everything else cost more. We can see this on a micro scale every time an old coal power plant is closed. On average, the wholesale price of electricity goes up, until compensated for by some newer form of electricity production (the new source taking energy to build).

Visions for the future usually include extra energy efficiency for buildings, etc. but never, ever, include the energy cost of these energy efficiency gains. For example, a simple hand wave about using double glazed or triple glazed windows. To do this, on a worldwide scale, we would need to build a lot of new glass factories, and probably window manufacturers as well. It will take more energy to do this, just like everything else ‘new’.

The phrase ‘build new’ means more energy is required for construction and mining the minerals for the new or expanded factories. The Adaro coal power plant (new) and aluminium smelter (also new) in Indonesia are perfect examples of our predicament. The world needs more aluminium for ‘new’ solar PVs, EVs, wiring, etc. which means more energy use and environmental damage, regardless of whether we use fossil fuels, solar panels, or pumped hydro backup.

Civilization is a Ponzi scheme energy trap, we either grow energy and material use, or we stagnate, and then collapse. Following feedback loops, we see there is no way out of this predicament.

People often claim the future is difficult to predict, yet it is simple, obvious, and highly predictable for humanity as a whole. We will continue to use more energy, mine more minerals, and destroy more of the environment, until we can’t. The first real limit we will experience is oil production, and we may be there already.

Once oil production starts to fall with a vengeance as it must, say 2-3 million barrels/day initially, then accelerating to 4-5 million barrels/day, it will trigger a feedback loop of making natural gas and coal production more difficult as both are totally dependent upon diesel, thus reducing the production of both, or if we prioritize diesel for natural gas and coal production, then other consumers of diesel, like tractors, combines, trucks, trains, and ships, must use less.

Mining and agriculture will come under pressure, sending prices for all raw materials and food through the roof. World fertilizer use is currently above 500 million tonnes annually. A lot of energy is required to make and distribute fertilizer. World grain yields are strongly correlated to fertilizer use, so less energy means less fertilizer, which means less food, unless we prioritize energy for agriculture by taking energy from and harming some other part of our economy.

If we banned discretionary energy uses to keep essential energy uses going, while overall energy continues to decline, then large numbers of people will lose their jobs and experience poverty, further compounding the problems of scarcity and rising prices.

Money for investing into anything will dry up. If governments print money to help the economy, inflation will negate the effort. If governments increase taxes to fund more assistance, then more people and businesses will be made poorer.

The ability to build anything new quickly evaporates, people everywhere struggle between loss of employment, loss of affordable goods and services, increased taxation, and will be forced to increase the well-being of their immediate ‘group’ to the detriment of ‘others’. Crime rates go through the roof, the blame game increases, with some trying to dispossess others of their resources. This will occur for individuals, groups and countries. Crime and war will further accelerate the decline in energy production, and the production and shipment of goods in our global economy. One after the other, at an accelerating rate, countries will become failed states when the many feedback loops accelerate the fossil fuel decline. Likewise for solar, wind and nuclear.

We rapidly get to a point where our population of 8.1+ billion starts to decline, with starving people everywhere searching for their next meal, spreading from city to country areas, eating everything they can find, while burning everything to stay warm in colder areas during the search for food. Every animal found will eaten. Farming of any type, once the decline accelerates, will not happen, because too many people will be eating the seed, or the farmer. Cows, sheep, horses, chooks, pigs, deer, basically all large animals will succumb because of the millions or billions of guns in existence and starving nomadic people.

Eventually after decades of decline, humans will not be able to be hunter gatherers as we will have made extinct all of megafauna. Whoever is left will be gatherers of whatever food plants have self-seeded and grown wild. Even if we were able to get some type of agriculture going again, there would be no animals to pull plows, all old ‘machinery’ from decades prior would be metal junk, so food would remain a difficult task for humans, unless we found ways to farm rabbits and rats, without metal fencing. While we will use charcoal to melt metals found in scavenged cities, it will limited to producing a few useful tools, like harnesses to put on the slaves plowing the fields, or for keeping the slaves entrapped.

Once we go down the energy decline at an accelerating rate, nothing can stop complete collapse unless we can shrink population much faster than the energy decline, which itself may very well be pointless as we have created such a globalised economy of immense complexity, where fast population decline, has it’s own huge set of problems and feedback loops.

Our complex economy requires a large scale of human enterprise. Reduce the scale, and businesses will have less sales, making everything more expensive. Rapid population decline will mean many businesses won’t just reduce production, but will often stop altogether when the business goes bust.

Because of interdependencies of our complex products, a scarcity of one seemingly uncritical component will have far reaching effects on other critical products. Maintenance parts will become difficult to obtain, causing machinery to fail, in turn causing other machines to fail that depended on the failed machines. Think of a truck delivering parts required to fix trucks. The same applies to production line machines, processing lines at mines, or simple factories making furniture, let alone anything complicated. If we only reach population decline as energy declines the problem is still the same.

By B: On Radical Acceptance

https://thehonestsorcerer.substack.com/p/on-radical-acceptance

So what is radical acceptance? For me, it means: accepting that no single technological civilization based on finite resources is sustainable. Neither in the bronze age, nor in the iron age; let alone in an era of industrial revolutions. None. Why? Because all spend their nest egg — be it fertile topsoil, forests or coal, lithium and copper — a million times faster than it can be replenished. Recycling and “sustainability” practices can only slow down the process somewhat… At least in theory, but rarely in practice. The “circular economy”, together with „renewables” are nothing but fairy tales we tell ourselves to scare off the wolfs at night. Sorry to be this blunt, but the decline of this techno-industrial civilization is inevitable, and is already well underway.

The only type of civilization (if you want to use that term), which proved to be more or less sustainable so far, was a basic hunter-gatherer society; complemented perhaps with some agroforestry, pottery and some low key metallurgy. Anything beyond that inevitably destroyed the soil and the very resource base supporting the entire edifice. With that said, I’m not suggesting that we should immediately go back to the caves and mud huts… That would be impossible for 4 billion of us, entirely supported by large scale agriculture based on artificial fertilizers and a range of pesticides. However, it is important to note, that this is the direction we are headed, with the only question being how fast we will get there and how many humans can be sustained via such a lifestyle.

And this is where acceptance comes into view. Once you understand (not just “know”) that burning through a finite amount of mineral reserves at an exponential pace leads to depletion and environmental degradation at the same time, you start to see how unsustainable any human civilization is. All that technology (in its narrowest technical sense) does is turning natural resources into products and services useful for us, at the cost of polluting the environment. Technology use is thus not only the root cause of our predicament, but it can only accelerate this process. More technology — more depletion — more pollution. Stocks drawn down, sinks filling up. Simple as that. Of course you can elaborate on this matter as long as you wish, conjuring up all sorts of “game changer” and “wonder” machines from fusion to vertical gardens, the verdict remains the same. It. Is. All. Unsustainable. Period.

There are no clean technologies, and without dense energy sources like fossil fuels there wont be any technology — at least not at the scale we see today.

Many people say: Oh this is so depressing! And I ask: why? Because your grand-grand children will have to work on a field and grow their own food? Or that you might not even have grand-grand children? I don’t mean that I have no human feelings. I have two children whom I love the most. I have a good (very good) life — supported entirely by this technological society. Sure, I would love to see this last forever, and that my kin would enjoy such a comfortable life, but I came to understand that this cannot last. Perhaps not even through my lifetime. I realize that I most probably will pass away from an otherwise totally treatable disease, just because the healthcare system will be in absolute shambles by the time I will need it the most. But then what? Such is life: some generations experience the ‘rising tide lift all boats’ period in a civilization’s lifecycle, while others have to live through its multi-decade (if not centuries) long decline.

I did feel envy, shame, and anxiety over that, but as the thoughts I’ve written about above have slowly sunk in, these bad feelings all went away. It all started look perfectly normal, and dare I say: natural. No one set out to design this modern iteration of a civilization with an idea to base it entirely on finite resources; so that it will crash and burn when those inputs start to run low, and the pollution released during their use start to wreck the climate and the ecosystem as a whole. No. It all seemed like just another good idea. Why not use coal, when all the woods were burnt? Why not turn to oil then, when the easily accessible part of our coal reserves started to run out? At the time — and at the scale of that time — it all made perfect sense. And as we got more efficient, and thus it all got cheaper, more people started to hop onboard… And why not? Who wouldn’t want to live a better life through our wondrous technologies? The great sociologist C. Wright Mills summed up this process the best, when writing about the role of fate in history:

Fate is shaping history when what happens to us was intended by no one and was the summary outcome of innumerable small decisions about other matters by innumerable people.

Scientifically speaking this civilization, just like the many others preceding it, is yet another self organizing complex adaptive system. It seeks out the most accessible energy source and sucks it dry, while increasing the overall entropy of the system. We as a species are obeying the laws of thermodynamics, and the rule set out in the maximum power principle. Just like galaxies, stars, a pack of wolves, fungi or yeast cells. There is nothing personal against humanity in this. We are just a bunch of apes, playing with fire.

Once I got this, I started to see this whole process, together with our written history of the past ten thousand years, as an offshoot of natural evolution. Something, which is rapidly reaching its culmination, only to be ended as a failed experiment. Or, as Ronald Wright put it brilliantly in his book A Short History of Progress:

Letting apes run the laboratory was fun for a while, but in the end a bad idea.

So, no. I’m not depressed at all. It was fun to see how far a species can go, but also reassuring that it was a one off experiment. Once this high tech idiocy is over, it will be impossible to start another industrial revolution anyway. There will be no more easy to mine, close to surface ores and minerals. Everything left behind by this rapacious society will remain buried beneath a thousand feet of rocks, and will be of such a low quality that it will not worth the effort. Lacking resources to maintain them, cities, roads, bridges will rust and crumble into the rising seas, while others will be replaced by deserts, or lush forests. The reset button has been pressed already, it just takes a couple of millennia for a reboot to happen.

Contradictory as it may sound: this is what actually gives me hope. Bereft of cheap oil, and an access to Earth’s abundant mineral reserves, future generations of humans will be unable to continue the ecocide. There will be no new lithium mines, nor toxic tailings or hazardous chemicals leaching into the groundwater. Our descendants will be forced to live a more sustainable, more eco-friendly life. There will be no other way: the ecocide will end. This also means, that there will be no “solution” to climate change, nor ecological collapse. They both will run their due course, and take care of reducing our numbers to acceptable levels. Again, don’t fret too much about it: barring a nuclear conflict, this process could last well into the next century, and beyond. The collapse of modernity will take much longer than any of us could imagine, and will certainly look nothing like what we see in the movies. And no, cutting your emissions will not help. At all. Live your life to its fullest. Indulge in this civilization, or retreat to a farm. It’s all up to you, and your values. This is what I mean under the term, radical acceptance.

We are a species of this Earth, and paraphrasing Tom Murphy, we either succeed with the rest of life on this planet or go down together. Nurturing hope based technutopian “solutions”, and trying to remain optimistic does not solve anything. This whole ordeal is unsustainable. What’s more, it was from the get go… And that which is unsustainable will not be sustained. And that is fine. We, as a species are part of a much bigger whole, the web of life, and returning to our proper place as foraging humanoids will serve and fit into that whole much better than any technutopian solution could.

Until next time,

B

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1.5K Comments

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 7:08 pm

That’s some good looking soil on the farm, organically rich, nice clod size friable soil. The fact you add fish fertilizer to a soil that good should tell those that know little about farming what’s necessary to keep food flowing from farms, of all types.

No fertilizer, then the flow of food to cities will fall very quickly. In the future world of no fossil fuels, we will not be able to return the human wastes from cities to farms, therefore cities as we know them can no longer exist.

Rob, now imagine how long it will take you to turn those weeds in with a spade. It’s the actual hard farm work that people will do anything to get away from, and I suspect it means burning every last drop of oil it’s possible to obtain. Would you pay $10/ltre to do that job? I would, likewise for gathering wood to keep warm, I’ll use my chainsaw every day of the week. (especially at our age!!)

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 12, 2024 3:07 am

My electric chain saws and weed trimmers (Home Depot crap) run initially for about 45 minutes. After 1 year they are down to about 20 minutes so you have to buy more batteries (the expensive part). If I didn’t have a gas backup I would not get the big jobs done. I like the battery ones for their quieter operation but you have to have a gas backup. And this doesn’t even address the poor quality of manufacture of all small power tools.

AJ

Hamish McGregor
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 2:27 am

At an hour and fifty five minutes, it must be one of Nate Hagen’s longest videos. I’ve only watched the first 55 minutes so far and plan to watch the remainder tomorrow. So far it is pretty good and I think it is worth watching. At 50′ Nate discusses 4 possible paths :

  • Green Utopia – unlikely
  • Mordor, a snake eating it’s tail – most likely
  • Simplifying, Nate thinks we could do this and soften the collapse
  • Mad Max, or as I prefer to call it – The Road (DuckDuckGo).

The video is likely an excellent recap for most of us here on un-denial.com and for me, deepens the sense of doom. It is obvious a lot of effort went into producing the video.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Hamish McGregor
June 11, 2024 8:05 pm

It’s Nate’s usual stuff, nothing really new, lots of ideas about what we need to do for a simpler future without ever mentioning the elephant in the room of vast overpopulation, rendering most of his solutions useless.

I would suggest Nate has a great plan if it had been implemented 100 years ago with a much smaller population and many easy to get resources available, that could have had a planned usage to set up a sustainable society.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 7:30 pm

The first part is a good overview of our predicament but he does then descend into promoting his own hopes and dreams. He desperately wants modernity to continue (and I’m sure most of us do) without explaining how that could possible be sustainable. He wants to retain what he thinks of as the good stuff and ends up promoting what might be termed airy fairy ideas about personal development (perhaps a hang over from his India trip). I’d love to follow a great simplification path, because it keeps modernity alive for a bit longer, but that will ultimately fail, and humans, if they survive, will be back to the real world of vying with other species for food and trying to avoid injury.

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 12:39 am

Great spot Rob

Anonymous
Anonymous
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 10:36 pm

Great looking garden Rob! Say more about the movable high tunnel/green house. I’ve looked at the various approaches online (originating with Eliot Coleman and the various design evolution) and am thinking of using fencing gate wheels/galvanized pipes on concrete pads. This civilization is done for, but I’d like to build/grow things (like local food) in the meantime to keep sane and help transition to whatever is too come next.

Also, check out alldaychemist(dot)com for your medical shopping needs. (I saw earlier where you were asking for a good place to acquire such things.)

And thanks for what you do with this site. While I don’t agree with some things, it is a great place for me to lurk in my limited time online to see what’s going on from your perspective and those of your regular commentators. Some great links get posted here.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 11:32 am

“I’ve had a giant salad every night for 2 weeks.”

Haha, I could not resist. This is Rob ordering at a restaurant:

Seinfeld How about a big salad (youtube.com)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 12:05 pm

Congratulations for everything.

Stellarwind72
June 10, 2024 7:44 pm

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/6/9/israels-rescue-of-four-captives-kills-hundreds-of-palestinians-in-gaza
Israel’s operation to free four captives held by Hamas killed more than 270 Palestinians and injured around 700 others in Gaza’s Nuseirat refugee camp. What’s being praised as a success in Israel has been condemned by several countries and organisations, including the UN, EU, and aid agencies.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 8:26 pm

What a shocker.

Would somebody please step up and do what should have been done a long time ago. Aim all your nukes at Washington DC and pull the fu#king trigger till it goes click.

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 5:51 am

A powerful comment Rob.

The need for justice if not vengence is a brutally powerful force. It can be so blinding.

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 5:27 pm

If that happened we’d have no GPs left in NZ.

Anonymous
Anonymous
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 12:00 pm

Definitely not “covid anger”. There’s no such thing among normies xD

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 12:01 pm

There is something really fishy going on. I don’t understand Macron’s move. Remember this: https://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2024/05/27/wtf-am-i-watching/. I feel like I am watching a rigged boxing match, where one of the fighter has been told to lay down.

Maybe, I am just being paranoïd. But we live in extraordinary times.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 11:50 am

Indeed maybe. If that’s so, then it’s such a selfish drive without vision.

This is all confusing to me. There are many other possible(?) interpretations:

  • Macron is disconnected with reality and genuinely thinks he can gain his majority back. It’s a kind of all or nothing gamble.
  • He is following orders and RN is just another shade of corporate order/neo-feudalism
  • He is following order and as soon as the RN seizes power, the lenders come to France and ask for debt payback. Macron’s ilk come back as saviors a bit later down the road.
  • Macron sees the whole dashboard. All the indicators are flashing red, he is heading for the exit before his heads finds itself lower than his body.
  • There is a huge fight going on at all levels between globalism and nationalism. Each side thinks it can gain an edge over the other by operating in tandem during the 3 years cohabitation.
  • Nobody knows what they are doing… It’s just a fun game
  • The invisible worlds rule, and we can’t comprehend unless we elevate ourselves

In any case, we are going to experience a lot of rapid changes. (that I expected anyway, maybe not in this form)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 12:00 pm

Also, couldn’t Macron be at risk of being sued (after his mandate), if the RN raises the vaccination issue once they seize power?

Of they don’t it will be quite telling…

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 12:34 pm

I don’t know. Many interesting questions without answers… Maybe time will tell us more (or just obscure things further).

Life, to me, is increasingly turning into a big question mark 🙂 I guess that’s how it is…

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 7:29 pm

Here in oz all major parties supported vaxx crap so they can’t use it. Even Trump can’t.

CampbellS
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 11, 2024 11:24 pm

I’m using that list and punch line in other forums. To the point.

Just spent the last couple of days planting fruit and nut trees with the family before we have a dump of rain. The food forest is cranking and providing plenty of produce for eating and preserving. Still very attached to the supermarket though.

Happy gardening.

Hideaway
Hideaway
June 9, 2024 6:36 pm

New talkfest from Nate Hagens, with young people. Natasha talking first between the 6-10 minute mark, covers the big picture, but it’s like they were told not to discuss population at all.

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 9, 2024 9:55 pm

The spiel Natasha gives between the 6 -10 minute mark is easily the best part of the whole ‘show’. She is a very bright young lady that clearly gets what’s wrong with modern civilization and how it’s self terminating, she states this herself.. Then the rest of the show descends into usual talkfest, of NOT discussing how to lower population to prevent as much suffering as possible.

There was also one good bit from James, who’s into regenerative agriculture, where he acknowledges that all the forms of ‘organic’ farming are just the usual methods with slightly different chemicals and not possible in the long term because of fuel, fertilizer, pesticides, herbicides etc…

You would think that admitting farming of any type can’t feed the huge population, would lead to discussion about population, but no, just move on to the next irrelevant bit..

I am under the impression they were under instruction to NOT discuss population. I have a suspicion that all the mainstream overshoot aware people are in fear of having their youtube videos banned by discussing what’s most important, like the bans of those discussing alternative treatments that were not vaccines or remdesivir in the main Covid days.

Perhaps the term “population” attracts attention of the youtube censors, who then look very carefully at the content…

paqnation
Reply to  Hideaway
June 10, 2024 12:16 am

Yes, 6-10min mark was worth listening to. I can listen to an articulate person talk about their journey all day long. Just wish she would name all the sources she used. Can get a good sense of where a person is at on their journey by who they follow.

But the denial around population reduction is so deep and massive. My mom can read RFK’s books (that even Rob had to stop reading because Fauci is so vile and disgusting), and then when I talk to her about overpopulation (or how covid might even be a good thing – for reduction purposes), she walks out of the room and slams the door in my face 😊. Even something softcore like fertility rates going down, she don’t want to hear it. It’s bizarre.

If I can’t get you to see overshoot, I’ll never get you to see that we need to go from 8billion to 1bill in the next 25 years. Talk about an impossible sell.

And I put my money on what Rob said about Nate doing some self-censoring, and mainly because of the people funding his channel.

ABC
ABC
June 9, 2024 10:46 am

Dear Rob,

I hope thou are feeling well.

Perhaps this is folly, however I could not contain myself after thinking about this matter. 

Regarding the mind over reality transition theory presented by Dr. Varki.

  • Death has been apart of evolution since all life began, to be afraid of it is advantageous.

    For it to be the fundamental driving motif for denial, this I have come to question.

    I might be utterly incorrect, if you’ll excuse my impudence I will elaborate further on this newfound perspective:

    The fundamental driving evolutionary feedback loop is an trait related to fitness and survival, ie. adaptation.
    Adaptation and innovation both enabled an accelerated evolutionary path for Genus Homo, increasing fitness whilst reducing metabolic cost, improving cognitive efficiency, increased innovation and EROI.

  • First order mechanism; Necessity
    Immediate needs are prioritised (future discounting), maximum power principle maximises EROI.
     
  • Second order mechanism; Convention
    Denial is a second order mechanism, increased gain and self-interest by discarding the concerns of the future.
  • Second and/or third order mechanism; Experience
    Unforeseen externalities, recognition of longterm-systemic negative effects.

    How does denial correspond to environment?

    A counter-reaction to denial?

    Perspectives:

    For any phenomena to exist in a vacuum without an opposing feedback loop seems unlikely.
    – The answer is paradoxically self-interest, otherwise any negative matter or situation could not be acknowledged and solved.

    Due to self-interest and advanced cognition, an entity may question, resist and/or forego activities which are against their self-interest.
    – The experience of negative feedback loops and/or diminishing returns of prior actions, forces one to adapt in order to ensure evolutionary fitness.

    To summarise:

    Denial is a mechanism, a counter-mechanism ought to exist.
    – To overcome denial requires either direct experience and/or acknowledgement of potential loss leading to reduced evolutionary fitness.

    Have I lost my wit or how would thy describe this nonsensical blathering?

    Kind and warm regards,

    ABC

Anonymous
Anonymous
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 9, 2024 5:42 pm

Dear Rob, 

I appreciate thine swift response. 

I can only hope my understanding is on par with thyself. 

If not, I hope thou can forgive my hubris. 

To note, I find the theory presented by Dr. Brown & Dr. Varki to be astoundingly brilliant.
I immediately assimilated the core essence of it into my rationale. 

I simply dare suggest, that the emergence of denial might perhaps be increasingly more ancient and archaic instead, whilst also elaborating on how there ought to exist a method on how to plausibly acknowledge and navigate past it. 

As imminently and graciously requested, a sentence; 

An in tandem development of extended multilateral awareness accompanied by denial of reality, the latter suppresses the notion of impending self-mortality brought forth by the former.

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

monk
Reply to  Anonymous
June 10, 2024 12:48 am

ABC how far back are you thinking Denial emerged?

ABC
ABC
Reply to  monk
June 10, 2024 7:41 am

Dear Monk,

I hope thou are feeling well.

I suppose denial could have occurred when the brain capacity proliferated rapidly due to high nutritional intake, I dare suggest Homo Erectus.

When fire and advanced tools introduced havoc in the area, one ought to notice the causal consequences when resources dwindle due to previous actions.

Moving elsewhere for sustenance and repeating this behaviour is more energy efficient, than remaining sedentary and adapt to scarcer circumstances. 

An adaptation which maximises EROI whilst cultivating reality denial?

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

ABC
ABC
Reply to  Anonymous
June 12, 2024 3:54 am

Dear Rob,

I hope thou are feeling well.

What is thine assessment on the matter?

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

Charles
Charles
June 9, 2024 1:00 am

Anecdoctical I know, but I liked this:

Despite what governments and businesses would probably like, people (at least in this documentary) are grounded, responsible.

The fall in fertility rates is, to me, one of the greatest story of our time.

monk
Reply to  Charles
June 9, 2024 1:42 pm

So many countries have wrecked their economies. Treating young people as revenue streams with education fees, rents, and housing price increases. The older generations are wealthy off the struggles of the younger generations. And now those younger people cannot afford children. This is an outcome of financializing every aspect of life; the capital class trying to wring every last dollar out of people

Charles
Charles
Reply to  monk
June 10, 2024 11:37 am

I guess it really is a ponzi scheme.

And this seems not to be the first time it happens in history: Herodotus (probably an early days conspiracy theorist) claimed Pharaoh Cheops forced his own daughter in prostitution to pay for his pyramids. (https://time.news/the-pharaoh-who-prostituted-his-daughter-to-pay-for-the-great-pyramid/)

Ponzi scheme, pyramid scheme, aha!

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
June 9, 2024 1:45 pm

I liked it too. The girl on the screenshot cover was the best. They are well informed. Wonder how many citizens they interviewed that got edited out? Probably not much.

Cant imagine how many people they would have to edit out in USA to get a comparable documentary. I bet it would be in the tens of thousands.

monk
Reply to  paqnation
June 10, 2024 12:44 am

I love watching the dumb usa american interviews

paqnation
Reply to  monk
June 10, 2024 3:17 pm

I suppose its easier to be entertained by it from the outside looking in. Just makes me sick to my stomach. But I’m trying to shift my outlook. Way better and healthier to be amused than angry.

monk
Reply to  paqnation
June 10, 2024 5:24 pm

It wouldn’t be so fun if you were American, I could see that. It’s when they can’t even answer the USA questions and I can that I’m really surprised

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 9, 2024 12:25 pm

Hello Rob,

I was wondering what the reference for the 17M number was.

Thank you.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 9, 2024 3:57 pm

I’m waiting on age-standardised all cause excess deaths. Without that, we can’t draw conclusions. I have had a google alert for this, for months, but still nothing. My guess is that there is no such signal yet to prompt some kind of research. Calculations I’ve seen for NZ, Aussie and the UK show no significant excess mortality, if any.

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  Mike Roberts
June 10, 2024 5:41 am

If the truth was wanted to be found Mike it is simple to do.
Simply match health events including deaths with vax statis and see if there is a trend.
I think it is pretty obvious they won’t do this because for all age groups a difference will be seen between vaxxed, boostered and unvaxxed – with vaxxed and boostered showing a worse health outcome. If it was the other way around you bet your shorts they would have released the data by now to show that and shut pesky anti-vaxxers down.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  nikoB
June 10, 2024 11:40 am

Yes, a deafening silence.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  nikoB
June 10, 2024 6:32 pm

I tend to agree with you, niko, but I’m resistant to making assumptions.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 11:39 am

Thank you.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 9, 2024 12:48 pm

This was a great talk. For anyone who didn’t listen to Nate talking to Peter in a previous podcast of Nate’s, then this is a must listen. Peter seems to be writing a new book that uses some of Nick Lane’s ideas about the origin of life and the importance of CO2/O2 in our planet. Also he seemed to be working his way to MPP and the entropy path that all animals (life) and the universe are following. I suspect he is becoming a doomer?

AJ

paqnation
Reply to  AJ
June 9, 2024 1:33 pm

Ya, I liked this a lot. Favorite moment was at 46-49min when he breaks down CO2 and the delicate dance involved with keeping earth habitable. 

I don’t remember him being this good on Nate’s show, but maybe I was not paying attention enough.

paqnation
June 8, 2024 7:22 pm

Last week Hideaway mentioned that over 500 nuclear blasts have gone off in our atmosphere. Sounded way too high, so I did some fact checking 😊. He was right, of course. Couple of things I thought were interesting. There’s been over 2,000 total explosions (US and Soviet Union combine for 1,750). Only a couple underwater, 500 aboveground and 1,500 underground. Since 1998 only one country is guilty. The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea six times between 2006-2017

A few years back, I was into Dr Steven Greer hardcore (he’s the alien guy). My favorite idea of his was how alien abductions and all the stereotypes do not begin showing up until humans start testing nukes. His theory says the blast is so powerful that it ripples into other dimensions and up until then there was no reason for “others” to be looking at our planet. Greer sells it pretty good too. 

Another thing he does well is tie it all back to elites (the 1500) and how they won’t allow their generational wealth to be altered by the life changing free energy that we have known about for 100 years now. (from Nikola Tesla, from aliens, and all those stories that sound something like “a guy invents water for gasoline and is mysteriously killed the next week, and all research destroyed”).  

That’s where some of my raging hatred for the white billionaires comes from. It eventually gets old though. And Greer has too many “bullshit” moments for me to forgive. But when you are lost and confused and you dont understand energy, it’s very easy to get caught up in his theories.

I would still watch a new documentary from him no problem. (those pre-overshoot times were kind of fun trying to “figure it all out”)   

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 8, 2024 7:17 pm

LOL. I love it. (and I despise rap)

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 1:03 pm

Correct me if I am mistaken . . . didn’t Sacks say that initially he believed that Covid came from nature due to all the “Science” journals publishing that. He now believes they are (science journals) corrupt and that it came from a lab and that the U.S. did most of the work in the U.S. then shipped it to China to do some testing and they accidentally let it lose. He said he was wrong initially. . . NO ONE of the perpetrators/enablers says that!

AJ

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 8, 2024 5:22 pm

It validates only the existence of denial, not a particular theory or hypothesis that might explain that denial.

Stellarwind72
June 8, 2024 7:23 am

An Idea for the next post on un-denial. How (to try) to remain in good mental health while being aware of all of these issues?

ABC
ABC
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 8, 2024 5:18 pm

Dear Rob,

thine request has been completed.

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 10, 2024 6:09 am

Sent you something Rob.
Let me know here if you didn’t get it

Stellarwind72
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 12, 2024 5:04 pm

I personally struggle to remain sane knowing everything I know about energy collapse and overshoot.

I understand why it is advantageous to have working denial genes.

paqnation
Reply to  Stellarwind72
June 12, 2024 5:38 pm

That might be the most honest thing I have seen all month. Thanks for that Stellar. I’m right there with you.

p.s. This better be real, and not just you being lazy or unconfident about writing for the guest essay. 😊

Stellarwind72
June 8, 2024 3:25 am

How The Russia-Ukraine War Will End

paqnation
June 7, 2024 5:39 pm

Hello everyone. There is a good teacher/student thing going on between Rob and anonymous on the older comments (Keep at it anonymous. I’ve been playing along too.)

Here was my 1st attempt to capture the essence of MORT theory in one sentence: The super rare mutations of eToM (super brain power) and MORT (ability to deny the scary stuff) miraculously evolved at the same time in one species (a once in a trillion-year event), which has allowed that species to dominate and eventually destroy their planet. (kind of similar to what anonymous said)

After Rob hilariously said “wrong”, I then went into my normal hissy fit mood and changed my answer to: “who gives a shit”… but then after I calmed down and went with his instructions…. I came to the conclusion that my first answer was correct, so I am leaving it alone for now until their conversation progresses.

I had read his short version of MORT before which is excellent, but somehow I missed the comments (note to self: always check the comments for this site, there is usually gold). Poor Rob. He has been doing this same cycle of what he’s doing right now with anonymous (and me) for what must seem like an eternity. Easy for me to forget that, when I am nagging him over some aspect of MORT that I dont understand or like. 

The link below is a great conversation (makes my top ten list for sure) with Rob and Anonymous in a similar teacher/student battle. Hopefully not the same anonymous as above. Can you imagine? (Haha – rob is stuck in purgatory groundhog day saying the same damn shit to the same damn person every few months. I love it!) 

Hey Rob, do you have a favorite era (and audience) of un-Denial? When was it the most fun for you? Besides nowadays, of course 😊 

Theory (short) – un-Denial

Mike Roberts
Reply to  paqnation
June 7, 2024 6:37 pm

Yes, as I understand it, there were two evolved traits that occurred together. One was, as you say, and extended theory of mind. This allowed those who evolved it, an ability to understand the minds of others (realising that they had the same minds) and to understand that they, too, understood your mind. Apparently, this would have allowed unlimited social development except that it also inevitably led to a realisation that we are mortal and will die. According to Varki, this realisation must have had a maladaptive consequence of prioritising survival above reproduction and so would stop the ETOM genes from propagating through the species. However, at some point, the mutation which conferred EToM happened coincidentally with a mutation which somehow prompted a denial of death. This double mutation gave those who had them an advantage over others and so the mutated gene spread through the population.

It could be true though I’m not convinced a mutation can have such an influence on thinking and beliefs. I’m also not convinced that an extended theory of mind, without the denial mutation, must inevitably lead to an obsession with avoiding death. I can see how it could also lead to an increase in the desire to reproduce. There are many possible consequences.

ABC
ABC
June 7, 2024 3:54 am

To everyone,

I wish to bring forth the proposal previously suggested by our dear Gaia
A live meeting via the world wide web.

Kind and warm regards, 

ABC

ABC
ABC
June 7, 2024 3:37 am

Dear Hideaway,

I hope thou are feeling well.

I present to thee another humble wish of inquiry, with no expectations attached.

If plausible, I would immensely appreciate thine calculated perspective alongside with some numbers and information regarding the EROI, cost-effectiveness etc. on the Finnish nuclear power plant of Olkiluoto 3.

Perhaps this might even be to thine interest as a “newly constructed” power plant.
– An ordeal brimming with erratic events.

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  ABC
June 8, 2024 7:21 pm

Hi ABC,

I need to know all the numbers in regard to the building operating and maintenance of the nuclear power plant over it’s lifetime of operation. On others I’ve used ‘expected’ lifetime and costs whenever I can find them, all in $US…

If you have such numbers I’d be most great full.

I’ve tended to use industries own estimations of their own costs, which always seem to show that their own power generation is best, yet still find none are close to what we built the system with. As the entire system needs to be replaced over time, due to entropy, then if it’s more expensive relative to current energy costs than what we built it with, then there has to be less energy production in the future, relative to the past, all while the energy costs of gaining the resources needed to build replacements are going up.

ABC
ABC
Reply to  Hideaway
June 12, 2024 4:48 am

Dear Hideaway, 

I hope thou are feeling well. 

I appreciate thine quick response, I also apologise for my passivity regarding this matter. 

Without spending countless amounts of energy to investigate the technicalities of the plant, due to utter lack of expertise, I can only hope these numbers will be of any value.

Building cost:
11 billion €

Production capacity:
1600mw

MWh price:
78€

Operational cost:
23€ / MWh
2.3C / KWh

Service life:
60 years

Source:

https://jonasnoeland.substack.com/p/rystad-energy-spreads-misinformation

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  ABC
June 12, 2024 7:04 pm

Hi ABC, just the LCOE price of 78 Euros or around $US84/Mwh tells us all we need to know in a world we built based upon cheap energy like the Saudi’s are still producing a lot at $US2.50/Mwh for refined oil products ($US1.70/Mwh for crude).

The world current wholesale average price of ‘energy’ for the last decade has been around $US40/Mwh.

If the production cost of energy is $2.50/Mwh, there is plenty of profit, being a metaphor for energy, for all other uses. If the cost of energy is $US84/Mwh then it is sucking energy and resources from the rest of civilization as a whole, that is paying $US40 on average to build and maintain everything.

paqnation
June 6, 2024 4:16 pm

Mike’s “humans are a species” made me think about tweaking the story. If you are on the fence about MORT (I’m about 75% in support of, but I’m 100% down with denial) then I have a quick easy sell for you that worked for me: On a universal scale his theory is by far the gloomiest thing I have ever heard. And this coming from me who always accuses un-Denial of being nihilistic and killing off my last bits of hopium. At least MORT has a sense of “this can be cracked”. I still dream of some species out there in the universe getting it right. But Mike’s vision has no hope whatsoever.

But either way, its not worth dwelling on. Because they both tell the story pretty much the same way. I’ll try to demonstrate what I mean. Here is a comment from the Nate/Schmach interview. It might as well have been written by me prior to finding un-Denial. Its in regard to why the “good” will always be defeated by the “evil”: 

This was pretty much the case for a couple hundred thousand years. The other tribes DID notice the aberrant tribe, and they banded together to drop the agent tribe from dominating. We know this is true, because it took the entirety of human history (up until 10k years ago) for a dominant culture to “win.” They were able to defeat the other tribes because this new culture grew its own food, and so it was able to field more combatants with access to constant food supplies. This culture acted in the same pattern as a cancer cell in the body, and the immune system didn’t shut it down in time. Now the whole world is cultural descendants of the dominator tribe.

Boy, I still love that Quinn way of selling our story. Impossible to not give you some hope that humans can live the “right” way. But I don’t see it like this anymore. Rob’s quote here sums up both MORT and “humans are a species” for me: 

For the last 10,000 years we broke through normal resource constraints with agriculture (bigger share of solar energy) and fossil energy (ancient solar energy) and became a destructive unsustainable species, that is smart enough to know better, but denies what it is doing.

When abundance of energy enters the picture, it’s over. I think it’s that simple too. And maybe we were able to live “right” (with wisdom and all that) when our species was down in the 1.5 EROEI range (along with most other species). But as soon as it gets substantially more than that, it is game over. Every species will be guilty of consuming this abundance of energy until they collapse from overshoot. There is no way out of it. And it’s impossible to reverse it mid-flight (even with mass amounts of wisdom).

I pray there is something watching us all as if we are just one in a gazillion experiments. And there is some all-universe Olympic type event waiting for the top twenty species who put together the puzzle best. You gotta figure un-Denial would be there (yes, including you Mike). And we have to battle it out and finish the puzzle against some very different looking species who are similar to us with their knowledge & understanding of their predicament (and the rest of the universe). The top three medal winners get to save their species and planet and actually start some deep meaningful space exploration with magic unlimited no pollution energy. The losers (and the rest of life) get to die from horrendous overshoot. 

Ooh. That sounds like a good movie. Or at least a half hour twilight zone episode. (and dont worry Rob, you’ll get top billing as our “Captain Kirk” type character) 😊

Mike Roberts
Reply to  paqnation
June 8, 2024 5:19 pm

Unfortunately, hope doesn’t come into reality. Reality is what it is. Hope would be nice but it’s irrelevant to reality.

Even this tribe or that tribe doesn’t come into it, long term. Evolution acts on the individual’s progeny, not the species. If the mutated gene gives an advantage, then the genes of that individual will propagate through the species or begins a new species (in combination, obviously).

If MORT is correct, there is nothing to be done. If the appearance of MORT emanates from simply being a species, there is nothing to be done. It’s just an academic argument, really. If denial provides a way of rationalising some actions, then denial will happen. Personally, I don’t think this arises from a denial mutation but it doesn’t really matter either way because species will continue to do what species do, regardless what some members of one of those species thinks.

Stellarwind72
June 6, 2024 1:25 pm

Why Biden’s New Bill Is So Terrifying

Note: The video is age-restricted and can only be seen on Youtube, not because it contains graphic content, but it contains content critical of Israel that ran afoul of the Youtube algorithm.

Hamish McGregor
Reply to  Stellarwind72
June 6, 2024 5:47 pm

I normally do not sign-in to see “restricted” content on Yahoo. I viscerally detest having to reveal myself to Google (YouTube) etc.

After reading some of the comments, I resolved to sign-in and watch the video. Not satisfied with entering the user ID and password, Google made me do a captcha and then also receive a 6 digit access code on my phone. Then I had to click a special acknowledgment button on the video to actually get the thing to play.

FUCK GOOGLE AND THE FUCKING NAZIS THAT WORK THERE.

The video was worth watching.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 6, 2024 6:45 pm

Good to know I am doing something right. I’ve had uBlock Origin for years. Never get one single commercial on youtube. (or pretty much anywhere else).

A friend of mine (much more teki than me) did not believe me about no ads on yt. He had to come over and see it for himself. He thinks I got lucky with some old version of it (I never do updates). Because he has uBlock, but still gets plenty of ads.

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 6, 2024 7:47 pm

I love it. Keep outsmarting those a-holes.

Here is a head scratcher though. Like I said, zero ads on yt. But when I run an HDMI cable from cpu to TV, then I get loads of commercials from yt on the TV. I always end up going back to the cpu because I cant stand it. (nothing worse than getting into a nice long program about native americans and sustainable ways… and then some loud toyota ad pops up talking about how sustainable their trucks are. Talk about a mood killer)

p.s. That video is good. Thanks Stellar.

Hamish McGregor
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 6, 2024 8:11 pm

I’m using FireFox with uBlockOrigin on Ubuntu, Android and Windows 10 (home and Pro) – mostly no adverts across the board.

I almost never sign-in, so no history to clear. Firefox clears Cookies, Cache and History on closing. Also use DuckDuckGo, StartPage, etc.

A VPN would be next.

Hamish McGregor
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 8, 2024 1:56 am

Awesome that you use the (Firefox?) TOR browser. You inspired me to install Apache2 on Ubuntu and add a hidden service :

http://dytv7k3gzpfdxedaw7zs6mrsgbjuddxdwxuv663lntvq6yj6sfokeuqd.onion/

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  Hamish McGregor
June 7, 2024 12:56 am

I use a VPN, firefox and thunderbird on win11, adblocker ultimate, ublock, privacy badger and I get zero ads on anything. No issues with torrents but I don’t go to private trackers. YT does occasionally slow down but I just reload and prob solved.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 7, 2024 3:21 am

All I can say is I hope he is right and that Putin is sane enough to counter the stupidity in the U.S. leadership and Europe. Many others, Mearsheimer, Sacks, Ritter, C. Watson and your favorite Canadian Prepper think a nuclear war is likely (perhaps inevitable?). Is Doctotow in denial? I hope not.

AJ

Stellarwind72
June 6, 2024 10:38 am

India hits New Record Power Demand Again

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 8:23 pm

Alright. Enough is enough. Those are fighting words. 😊 Why is Schmachtenberger so disliked on this site? What am I missing here?

If you liked the Vanessa Andreotti interview from last week, you will like this one. (but I’ve only watched about 45min so far)

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 9:29 pm

Fair enough Rob. I would not doubt that he is able to woo me in because I already think he is intimidatingly intelligent. I get the same genius vibes from him that I get in interviews with John Lennon and Frank Black. So I admit I may be starstruck with Daniel.

I will have to confer with my spiritual advisor Charles (like it or not charles… its true 😊). If he says he does not like the Schmach then I will contemplate it more seriously. 

paqnation
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 10:23 pm

You are very truthful and consistent. When I was going through my comment history that is one of the main things that stood out the most. Your replies are always brief and to the point. 

Thats why you and Hideaway make such a perfect team together. The two of you are one big goldmine. He’s gonna provide gold but its more drawn out and time consuming. You’re gonna provide gold, but in short quick bursts.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 6, 2024 6:48 am

Spiritual advisor. Ah ah ah. That was unexpected.

Personnally, I can’t listen to Schmachtenberger more than 60 seconds. I find him boring, full of himself and empty. That being said, my opinion doesn’t matter. If you enjoy listening to him, keep doing so. And even that doesn’t matter, if you feel better following somebody else’s tastes for whatever reason, please do so. There is no wrong way of being.

I will now fulfill my role of spiritual adviser:

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Charles
June 6, 2024 6:50 am

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Charles
June 6, 2024 11:32 am

As with any other guru, I can assure you that you will get no-thing from me. (As Truth can neither be possessed nor given, only received) And that the price will turn out to be quite high (in the form of money, but most importantly with some traumatic experience). But that’s exactly what you are looking for. So it’s all worth it.

Ah, and never forget: “it is more blessed to give than to receive.”

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
June 6, 2024 2:18 pm

Oh no!!! My spiritual advisor has lost his mind. I might have to perform an exorcism on Charles until he likes the Schmach. 😊

I loved the entire three-hour interview. But check out the clip below at the 23:44 – 25:25 mark. You haters might enjoy this. They are trying to explain what MPP is. I’m not saying they don’t understand it, just saying they don’t sound like they understand it… but I forgive them because if you put a camera on me and told me to explain MORT, it would be so ugly to the point where the audience would not buy anything else that I had to say.

And Charles, I just read your conversation with Rob on the older thread. That was a great breakdown of your philosophy. You are obviously a fan of Krishnamurti (I love the conversations with him and David Bohm).

Outside of Michael Dowd the only other hardcore “religious” people I have paid attention to is Joseph Campbell and Richard Rohr (in a weird way I should probably include Charles Eisenstein as well). Just curious if you know these names and what you think of them. Thanks.

Daniel Schmachtenberger: “A Vision for Betterment” | The Great Simplification 126 – YouTube

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 6, 2024 11:06 pm

🙂

Sorry to disappoint you 🙂

  • I have heard of Joseph Cambell hero’s journey but never studied it. Probably interesting though
  • first time I encounter the name Richard Rohr, sounds interesting
  • I used to like Charles Eisenstein, there is an aspect of his personality that I have in me (and he is a Charles after all). One can immediately spot the trap in his thinking in title like “The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible”. That’s a heavy does of idealism. Jesus was already there for that before. We are still at it today. We know how the song goes. There is no general recipe. UG is an antidote to idealism. (but we will probably make a myth out of him and the game will go on. So goes the world of humans, periodically symbolically killing and resurrecting itself)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 6, 2024 11:19 pm

I am also a fan of Swami Prajnanpad (

) and Ramesh Balsekar (

)

To me, they all point in the same direction.

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
June 7, 2024 12:52 pm

Thanks for the feedback on my peeps.

Those two from you sound very interesting.

What direction? I want to bypass all this hard work and just end up at the final destination of wisdom. I’m an Empire Baby. Can’t I just buy a FastPass ticket and skip the line? 😊

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 7, 2024 4:03 pm

Yeah sure: you are already That (which you are looking for).

All know that the drop merges into the ocean, but few know that the ocean merges into the drop.

Not 2. (which does not necessarily imply 1)

You are welcome. Ah ah ah.

Seriously: it could do the trick for you (like in Gutei’s one finger story https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juzhi_Yizhi). There is no reason it couldn’t. No hard work necessary. That’s the point. It’s already all there. (before the words)

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
June 7, 2024 5:45 pm

Nope, it did not do the trick 😊, but I love that Gutei cut the boys finger off. And any talk about oceans and drops makes me automatically go here:

“And for What, For What. No matter what you do it will never amount to anything more than a single drop in a limitless ocean. What is an ocean but a multitude of drops.” – David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas

My favorite quote from Cloud Atlas – What is an ocean but a multitude of drops – David Mitchell (youtube.com)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 8, 2024 1:16 am

I just listened to a random Richard Rohr speech which came out of youtube search. It was very entertaining and relaxing. If you have any particular speech or text to recommend…

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 9, 2024 2:43 am

Thank you.

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
June 9, 2024 1:30 pm

Youre welcome. And just for the hell of it, here is a Joseph Campbell conversation I think you will enjoy. Its a 6-part series about the power of myth.

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth | Ep. 1: ‘The Hero’s Adventure’ (youtube.com)

Charles
Charles
Reply to  paqnation
June 10, 2024 11:13 am

Replying here because we have reached the maximum depth.

Thank you for the Joseph Campbell link. I will listen to it when I get more time.

paqnation
Reply to  Charles
June 10, 2024 3:08 pm

YW. And I just noticed that I linked you the wrong episode. Start with Ep 2. It will give you a better sense of whether you want to keep exploring Campbell or not.

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth | Ep. 2: ‘The Message of the Myth’ (youtube.com)

ABC
ABC
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 9:52 pm

Dear Rob,

I hope you are feeling well.

I understand thine perspective, laconic responses suffice in most matters.

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 6, 2024 2:15 pm

I actually suspect Schmachtenberger is a scam artist. Once for fun I went all the way back through his public Facebook profile. It was over 10 years of him just sharing daily content of whatever ‘new age environmental’ stuff was going viral, absolutely nothing of substance. Plus some very odd sexual stuff all the way back. He makes a lot of money as an internet personality- he is an influencer, that’s it.
There is definitely something very off about him. He has all the attributes of a great cult leader: charismatic, pretty eyes, ability to talk gibberish for hours, and gives off mega creepy vibes to mentally stable females.

paqnation
Reply to  monk
June 6, 2024 2:33 pm

Thanks for the inside scoop monk. Maybe you’re right.

Funny how easy it is to be a bullshit con artist these days. With everything getting worse by the day, there are eight billion of us waiting to be swooped off our feet and “saved”.

And you are so right about the cult leader vibe he gives off. 😊

Stellarwind72
June 5, 2024 4:20 pm

https://oilprice.com/Metals/Commodities/Trafigura-AI-Boom-Could-Spark-a-Copper-Shortage.html

The chief economist at commodity trading giant Trafigura has warned the copper market could tighten further as a result of artificial intelligence.

Speaking at the Financial Times Commodities Summit in Switzerland, Trafigura’s chief economist Saad Rahim said that growth has “suddenly exploded” as a result of the proliferation of global data centres.

By 2030, this could amount to an additional 1m tons of need, Rahim said and that the figure is “on top of a 4-5m ton deficit gap by 2030 anyway”.

He added: “That’s not something that anyone has actually factored into a lot of these supply and demand balances.”

Anonymous
Anonymous
Reply to  Stellarwind72
June 5, 2024 8:29 pm

Save those pre-1982 U.S. 1c coins. They’re 95% copper, and are worth almost 3c based on the copper value. There’s still plenty in circulation. (Some 1982 cents are 95% copper — the U.S. Mint switched in mid-1982 to 97.5% zinc pennies, because of the raw-materials cost of producing them)

ABC
ABC
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 11:04 am

Dear Rob,

I hope thou are feeling well.

The website is outright monstrously unappealing, however it seems the Japanese rally has some merit of happening.

Bizarre claims from the site which did the “fact checking.”

https://thepeoplesvoice.tv/global-warming-is-a-hoax-bombshell-new-study-in-nature-reveals-antarctic-ice-is-expanding/#disqus_thread

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

Hideaway
Hideaway
Reply to  ABC
June 5, 2024 5:11 pm

Hi ABC, extra ice accumulating on interior Antarctica does not mean climate warming is a hoax. In fact I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t more ice accumulating in the Antarctic interior.

As temperatures warm, the air can hold more water vapor. Going from an average temperate of -50 to -40 is a warming, and the air over interior Antarctica can hold and bring in more water vapor, which it drops as snow. Being so cold, even at -40 being warmer than -50, the snow compacts to ice and builds over time..

More ice build up in very cold areas of Antarctica is just more proof the climate is warming.

ABC
ABC
Reply to  Hideaway
June 5, 2024 9:41 pm

Dear Hideaway,

I appreciate thine reply.

Well said and with exceptional clarity.

Kind and warm regards,

ABC

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 3:26 pm

She’s right that degrowth will never happen voluntarily but the reason is that we’re a species. That explains everything.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 9:10 pm

No solution was discovered by evolution. Evolution isn’t a sentient being, it’s a name for what happens to life-forms. It doesn’t use any mechanisms, though the name is given for random mutations filtered by natural selection.

Intelligence is a name given by humans for some aspect of brain function. There are no units of measurement, though there are some tests which attempt to assign a number to it. It seems to be orthogonal to what we might call cleverness and to what we might call common sense. Consequently, it has nothing to do with how we might behave collectively or individually.

I don’t think anything can override MPP since it is part of what an organism is. Note that some organisms appear to have a weak adherence to MPP. Their genes would have a disadvantage compared to other organisms which adhere strongly to that principle. This is part of evolution. The fact that there are some weak adherents doesn’t mean the principle doesn’t apply.

Society punishes people who break the law because, a) it applies some kind of order to society, which would otherwise crumble, b) almost everyone believes that free-will does exist.

If you don’t think that “humans are a species” is useful, feel free to delete my comment.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 9:43 pm

I’m not sure what the point of the questions is but being capable of understanding something doesn’t mean that the understanding can alter our species behaviour. Obviously, no other species has developed societies that can develop the technology to fly to the moon, primarily because they haven’t evolved abilities necessary for those things. I have no idea whether other species believe in gods but I don’t think it would alter their behaviour either.

paqnation
Reply to  Mike Roberts
June 5, 2024 7:49 pm

Hey Mike. I just read and liked your latest article from 5/28. I have to admit, your easier way of looking at things is very tempting. To just throw away this insane complexity (denial) and chalk it all up to this is how every species behaves (consume resources till they are gone with no ability to foresee and prevent the consequences from this consumption).

But why have some of us have been able to break through and see the bigger picture. Rob’s go-to line for this is “we have defective denial genes”. And that makes sense to me. What is your line to explain this phenomenon?

And I just saw this comment from Sarah Connor on her site. “It’s a shame because, unlike other animals, we have the foresight to understand the consequences of our unsustainable expansion and consumption. Yet, we still fail to act.”

MORT/denial tells me why “we still fail to act”.
But what tells me why we still fail to act in your line of thinking? And you cant say because humans are a species. I need more than that.

paqnation
Reply to  paqnation
June 5, 2024 7:51 pm

Dammit!!! I hate when that happens. Mike, please disregard my reply. Rob’s is way better.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  paqnation
June 5, 2024 9:38 pm

Chris, although some of us have apparently broken through, I’m not sure it alters our behaviour much. If everyone lived as us, the planet’s ecosystems would still be deteriorating. For those of us who can still reproduce but plan not to, those genes would die out.

Sarah Connor’s comment illustrates it perfectly. We can understand what we’re doing but still fail to act. Through scientific endeavour, we’ve learned a lot about the universe but can’t override our innate species behaviour. So, yes, there is implicit denial but it’s a feature of being a species, no matter what mutations members of that species may have. Organisms live for today, not for tomorrow. I’ve explained this in other posts.

paqnation
Reply to  Mike Roberts
June 5, 2024 10:43 pm

Damn you! 😊 Now you got me feeling like Captain Mal from Firefly.

  • River: They weren’t cows inside. They were waiting to be, but they forgot. Now they see sky, and they remember what they are.
  • Mal: Is it bad that what she said made perfect sense to me?

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Mike Roberts
June 6, 2024 5:08 am

Organisms live for today, not for tomorrow.

It seems to me, different organisms consider different time-frames. Aren’t human groups able to optimize at the level of the year, and maybe even a bit more? (I mean taking winter into account, storing food, observing cyclical patterns, parenting, etc…)

Also, maybe, those with slightly sub-optimal strategies, are just a way for the group to hedge its bets. Because, sometimes, radically different circumstances occur and then different strategies will be more successful/help avoid total wipe-out.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Charles
June 6, 2024 3:46 pm

The future is unknowable, either by individual organisms or by nature. The only time that actually exists is now (pending some breakthrough in quantum tunneling) so that is what evolution works on.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Mike Roberts
June 9, 2024 3:06 am

It’s true that the future is unknowable.

However, even if it is so, some of us try to spot patterns, build models to make decisions. So it seems to me, we kind of (try to) balance the imagined future with the present, hedge our bets. In other words some organisms live today in part in anticipation of some tomorrow.

So I don’t understand what you meant by “organisms live for today, not for tomorrow”. There is something I am missing. Would you care to elaborate for me?

Thank you.

(I agree with your root argument that we are not and never be able to entirely control our destiny/take into account the full consequences of any actions. Nor should we burden ourselves with that ideal. To me, it seems even more fundamental than “we, being a species”)

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Charles
June 9, 2024 3:51 pm

I’m really talking in terms of the physical drivers of life. Genes. They have no concern for the past or the future. They simply endow certain attributes that help or hinder the organism that is built from them to live in the here and now. Here and now is all that exists.

Of course, some people, perhaps all people, try to figure out what the future may hold and plan for that. Some will be right, some will be wrong. But if a characteristic endowed by a gene doesn’t offer a benefit in the here and now, it is no more likely to be propagated that any other gene and less likely to be propagated that a gene which provides an advantage for living in the here and now.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Mike Roberts
June 10, 2024 11:10 am

Thank you. It makes sense.

Charles
Charles
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 12:19 am

That’s great!

If you like, you may try lacto-fermenting the radishes.

Or give to your neighbours or just anybody or feed some animals or back to the soil…

There is never any waste.

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 28, 2024 12:05 am

Red onions pickled in red wine vinegar, with a tp of sugar and salt – sooooo good. Keep it in the fridge

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 2:36 am

Hi Rob,

I’m green with envy! Well done on bringing forth your harvest! Yes, 20m rows are a bit ambitious for one person to consume, but all it takes is a pair of rabbits to help you with that problem!

Succession planting is the idea that you stagger your sowing of each type of crop every few weeks or so until the end of the growing season. So for instance, you can plant out 5 metres worth of seed at a time and they will hopefully mature in sequence. This is useful not only to provide a continuous harvest of the quantity you need, but it also is a way to avoid pests and diseases that might attack a whole monocultured mass planting, you have a back-up planting so it may not get infested because of the different timing of the insect or fungal cycle. Many greens (like the Asian greens you already discovered) bolt early due to the increasing day lengths or temperatures, so to stagger planting them throughout the whole growing season will find that sweet spot in their cycle that encourages more leafing before flowering. There’s all kinds of ways to tweak and manipulate, that’s all part of the art of agriculture.

I must admit my go to method of planting now is just letting things go to seed and self sow where they will and come up when they do, these plants always are the healthiest. It’s not an orderly rowed garden at all, with plants in all stages of growth and decay, but as long as I can find them and know they are edible, it is the easiest way I’ve found to grow food, more like foraging. You probably need more space to let different plants find their niche and thrive, and some will do better than others and eventually crowd them out so you may have to introduce more “motherplants” here and there. It’s all been a learning experience and I am happy to be a kindergartener (literally, child-garden) forever when it comes to communing with the earth and green things.

Happy Spring and Summer gardening all you in the Up Above!

Namaste.

toomuchmagic
toomuchmagic
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 7:20 am

All this stocking up on food must be because of your denial gene Rob. What are you going to do with SHTF and your neighbors find out you have all this great stuff?

Fast Eddy has a new post up, The Utter Futility of Doomsday Prepping you should consider.

https://fasteddynz.substack.com/p/the-utter-futility-of-doomsday-prepping

Any comments?

scarr0w
scarr0w
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
June 5, 2024 12:30 pm


Yes, “prepping” gives one a certain sense of agency, but it gets me off my retired butt, and mostly, there are many scenarios where it will be of use. We still don’t know exactly how things will unwind, so why not do SOMETHING that may even contribute to a local “lifeboat community” should you be lucky enough to live where survival is possible.

We prep for food in a kind of three tiered way. Stored foods in the pantry and root cellar that would last quite a while, a large garden every year to lessen dependence on the market and replenish stores, and perennial food plants, that don’t need cultivation or replanting every year.

Think of it as a hobby with side benefits if nothing else.

A post about our root cellar from 9 years ago:

http://viridviews.blogspot.com/2015/10/a-tour-of-root-cellar.html