Overshoot Doubt? Chris Clugston Kills It

Thanks to Sam Hopkins for bringing my attention to the work of Chris Clugston.

I’m pretty well read in the overshoot space and I thought I knew all the important contributors. Somehow I missed Chris Clugston.

Clugston has written two books: Scarcity in 2012, and Blip in 2019.

His unique contribution is to research our consumption of depleting non-renewable resources. All 100+ of them, not just fossil energy.

For many people, fossil energy depletion is a fuzzy threat because it’s complicated and there are so many cheerleaders of false beliefs. Ditto for the climate change threat with its promoters of green growth and carbon capture machines.

Clugston presents so many tangible non-negotiable threats to modern civilization that after absorbing his work there is no room for doubt and no where to hide.

His conclusion is bleak. Clugston calculates modern civilization will be done by 2050, with or without climate change, with or without peak oil, and with or without any green new deal idea.

Harsh yes, but real, and honest, and helpful for those still trying to make the future less bad, because his work shows that the best path is democratically supported rapid population reduction policies.

Clugston’s visibility on the internet is low. I don’t know it that’s by choice, or because of the unpleasantness of his message. I’d like to see that fixed so the people working to make the future less bad can use his work as ammunition.

https://www.readblip.com/

What we do to enable our existence simultaneously undermines our existence…

Our enormous and ever-increasing utilization of NNRs (nonrenewable natural resources) – the finite and non-replenishing fossil fuels, metals, and nonmetallic minerals that enable our industrial existence – is causing:

– Increasingly pervasive global NNR scarcity, which is causing

– Faltering global human prosperity, which is causing

– Increasing global political instability, economic fragility, and societal unrest.

This scenario will intensify during the coming decades and culminate in humanity’s permanent global societal collapse, almost certainly by the year 2050.

Since 2005, Chris Clugston has conducted extensive research into human “sustainability”, with a focus on non-renewable natural resources (NNR) scarcity. His goal has been to articulate and quantify the causes, implications, and con­sequences associated with industrial humanity’s “predicament” – our self-inflicted, self-terminating human/Earth relationship.

Here is the companion video to his book Blip:

Here is a 2012 presentation by Clugston in support of his book Scarcity:

Here is a summary of Clugston’s 2012 book Scarcity:

Here is a 2014 paper titled “Whatever Happened to the Good Old Days?

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Perran
Perran
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 5:12 am

We use a Fowlers vacola however this is the water bath method so is no good for veggies and meat. Fowlers makes a variety of glasses in different shapes and sizes. They’re sealed with a rubber ring and stainless steel lid. We reuse the rubber seals multiple times. I believe there is no reason why you can’t put them in a pressure cooker.
Fowlers used to be Australian made. Not sure if they still are.
I’m currently looking into a pressure cookers so we can can corn, beans and left over cuts of meat. I plan on using our Fowlers jars. Any recommendations on a brand of pressure cooker?
As regards to the interest rate dilemma I have no idea. All I know is that it will resolve itself in a way that is worse than bad. I’ve been putting my preparation into overdrive the last twelve months.

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 6, 2021 5:41 pm

The call for higher interest rates is seldom heeded. Has Mac10 looked at the US 10 year treasury for the last forty years?

sorpefjord
sorpefjord
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 3:40 am

The system will implode!

Shawn
Shawn
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 5:46 am

Hi Rob

Agree, it is interesting to think that real interest rates cannot rise much without breaking the U.S. and U.S. centric global system, and that U.S. rates at least cannot go much lower – below zero? – without breaking that dollar based system. (Pick your interest rate benchmark…)

As noted by several folks (Steve from Virginia, Gail Tverberg, others), there seems to be a parallel and probably connected situation with oil prices. Oil prices are cannot go much higher ($65-75?) without causing a credit crisis and recession/depression, or much lower, without shutting down more oil supply and causing a recession/depression.

As oil depletes, there is a descending line of oil price that the consumer can afford, and an ascending line of oil production costs and the selling price required by the producer. There is a doomsday point when those lines cross…

Corresponding with these lines of interest rates and oil prices, is, or was at least, the descending line of average annual global GDP growth. Pre-Covid, by my simple eyeball review a few years ago, it was tracking downward to zero somewhere around 2023-2025.

Now however, the system already appears to have broken at one level, and on full life monetary life support. We will know in a few years whether the current system dies soon, or if we can climb back to near pre-Covid levels using massive monetary intervention, and new technological innovation allowed to continuing by such stimulus. I doubt it. (I do think we are on the cusp of some new basic science and a new tech wave from the accumulation of knowledge and AI …but hard to see how it will play out as fossil energy declines.)

Nominal interest rates are have already climbed past the breaking point as inflation soars to 10% ? in the coming year? (Nominal interest rate = real interest rate + rate of inflation)

How does the current system break and reset? It is interesting to imagine, but hard to predict with so many economic and geopolitical variables. What kind of political and economic systems are viable in a world where economic growth is negative year after year? I assume that some folks in government – non-political actors – are in fact thinking about this and maybe planning for it in some way. I don’t know that. I do know from published documents that the militaries are quite aware of oil depletion….and that U.S. military action in the past has been at least partly driven by oil.

Right now, I am assuming a rapid 30% decline purchasing power in the U.S. when the system breaks and resets.

Shawn
Shawn
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 1:48 pm

Thanks for the reply Rob.

The issue of “machines” is often left out of the fossil fuel energy decline discussions. Most specially, the issue of internal combustion engines and turbines as enablers of modern civilization. Jean-marc Jancovici covers this in his presentations. Vaclav Smil covers this in “Prime Movers of Globalization.” (I have not ponied up yet to buy Alice Friedemann’s “When Trucks Stop Running: Energy and the Future of Transportation”)

As best that I can figure it, the current massive “flow” rate of natural resources from resources “stocks,” and the processing and delivery of the vast array of goods including food, depends almost completely on diesel fuel burned in internal combustion engines. That high flow rate of natural resource conversation per unit of human labor is the basis for the large amount of surplus goods available for distribution through society. Those large surplus of essential and non-essential goods allow/enable for the creation of vast amounts of credit money claims on anticipated future resource flows from stocks.

The thing is, internal combustion engines are limited in their thermal efficiency. When burned in internal combustion engines, only 25% to 45% of the energy content of the liquid fuel is converted to mechanical power. Average Thermal efficiency for vehicles is about 27% for gas and 35% for diesel. The rest of the energy is dissipated as escaped heat, or friction on mechanical parts and road surfaces.

As the cost of oil extraction/production and refinement to liquid fuel rises, and the surplus energy available in a barrel of oil diminishes. But because of the thermal efficiency limits of ICEs, this also means the net energy available to perform mechanical motion and economic work diminishes even more rapidly.

We have a built a massive infrastructure of internal combustion engines for energy production itself, resource extraction, goods movement, and people movement. The heat engine that is civilization is not a single thing, but a collection of billions of machines burning fuels.

I don’t know if it right, but I see the interest rates and monetary stimulus as a way of continuing to “feed” these existing machines refined liquid fuels, and maintain the conversion flow rate of natural resources from resource stocks.

We are locked into this infrastructure by the massive energy already spent to build this infrastructure, a capitalistic system, and geopolitical competition for resources. We will “print” money until this system locks and freezes from a lack of refined fuels.

ICEs gave us massive leverage on human labor on the way up the fossil fuel surplus energy production curve………so……

A visit to this Caterpillar mining page provides some perspective on diesel powered resource extraction equipment. https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/mining.html

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 7:23 am

My prediction a couple of years ago was the UST 10 year would never go above 3% for more than six months. I now say never above 2% for six months. Much ado about rising interest rates this year but they are still below the beginning of . . . 2020. The rates will drift down until collapse. Then borrowing will be, ahem, quite rare.

David Pursel
David Pursel
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 5, 2021 6:12 pm

“I agree that war is probable. But I don’t think it’ll be a carefully calculated response to energy depletion. Rather it will be an irrational and emotional response to growing social unrest caused by falling standards of living and a widening wealth gap.”

Well said, Rob.

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 6, 2021 7:45 pm

“Are we wise enough to look past our shovels to understand where this ends…”

This NPR story dates to 2016 buts somehow feels relevant and speaks to the question of how collectively smart we are.
ooooooooaaaa!

“When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Cards Against Humanity, the maker of the game of the same name, announced last week it would be celebrating Black Friday by digging a giant, pointless hole in the ground. The company named it the Holiday Hole, and said it would dig the hole for as long as people were willing to pay for it. The dig lasted for days and ended on Sunday.

Before the dig was stopped, donations began to dwindle, but for more than a week the money piled up, as has all the displaced dirt next to the hole — the location of which Cards Against Humanity has not disclosed. According to the website, the initiative has brought in $100,573.

This has raised a lot of questions in NPR’s newsroom, some of which Cards Against Humanity endeavored to answer on its site:

What's happening here?

Cards Against Humanity is digging a holiday hole.

Is this real?

Unfortunately it is.

Where is the hole?

America. And in our hearts.

Is there some sort of deeper meaning or purpose to the hole?

No.

What do I get for contributing money to the hole?

A deeper hole. What else are you going to buy, an iPod?

Why aren't you giving all this money to charity?

Why aren't YOU giving all this money to charity? It's your money.

Is the hole bad for the environment?

No, this was just a bunch of empty land. Now there's a hole there. That's life.

How am I supposed to feel about this?

You're supposed to think it's funny. You might not get it for a while, but some time next year you'll chuckle quietly to yourself and remember all this business about the hole.

How deep can you make this sucker?

Great question. As long as you keep spending, we'll keep digging. We'll find out together how deep this thing goes.

What if you dig so deep you hit hot magma?

At least then we'd feel something.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/11/27/503502142/people-donated-nearly-100-000-to-dig-a-big-pointless-hole-in-the-ground r

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 2, 2021 12:49 pm

Seems to be an apples to oranges comparison unless you think the COVID19 death toll would be little different without state-imposed restrictions. Not surprised from Niall Ferguson.

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Ken Barrows
May 2, 2021 4:05 pm

I think you were allowed to punch your wife in the face in 1957 too.

Zerohedge & Ferguson can go fuck themselves.

The give away, the tell is in the last paragraph – more dumb boring US politics.

Since there gs no getting away from American stupidity ANYWHERE on the internet, I’m fucking done. Adios

David Pursel
David Pursel
Reply to  Apneaman
May 2, 2021 4:38 pm

Really hate so see you go, Apneaman, but I perfectly understand your reason(s) for doing so. Maybe just take a break (?) as un-Denial will be less stimulating, and have less of a compelling edge, without you and your writing.

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 2, 2021 9:44 pm

I just read the History of Money. It’s interesting in places, but from my perspective he has blind spots. Of course, he also believes the Earth is an infinite plane.

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 3, 2021 6:50 am

In this case, though, comparing 1957 to today is really sloppy. He should have written an article using history to show no lockdown with COVID would have achieved the same result.

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Apneaman
May 2, 2021 8:07 pm

Zero Hedge is owned by ABC Media (Bulgaria) and Daniel Ivandjiiski. Niall Ferguson is Scotch. So technically the Yanks are innocent!

Florian
Florian
May 1, 2021 4:12 am

I don’t know how many young people are visiting but I think Roger Hallam has a way with words to express our doom.

madbobul
Reply to  Florian
May 1, 2021 11:04 am

Does the fellow from the movie direct his message to young people??
Really? I mean – I am relatively old, but first 10 minutes is pure boredom.
And when at around 9:30 he spells “I want to tell you little bit about myself” I though ” Ohhh boy….”

No bloody idea what is his hope of getting with this kind of verbiage to youngsters.

Apneaman
Apneaman
April 30, 2021 2:30 pm

Introduction to Evolutionary Psychology course lectures with Professor Azim Shariff {Psychology department at University of British Columbia}.

19 shortish lectures (15 to 30 min)

I’ve watched the first 2 lectures. I know much of the material, but I’m still learning & can always use a refresher & Professor Azim is a very good communicator, so all things considered I give the course to thumbs up – time well wasted.

Evolutionary Psychology – the bane of blank slate Progressives & evangelical, Dumb earth creationists.

Ed
Ed
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 1, 2021 12:15 pm

My favorite of Woods’. Second is In Search of Shakespeare. (if you like the Bard?)

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Ed
May 2, 2021 2:30 pm

Picking up on the M. Woods thread, there is a book called “Shakespeare’s Restless World.” In it Neil MacGregor discusses 20 objects that capture the essence of Shakespeare’s universe. One object is the Stratford Chalice. It is a silver communion cup kept at Shakespeare’s parish church, Holy Trinity in Stratford-upon-Avon. This Protestant cup was a matter of life and death. It is simpler than the usual ornate Catholic chalice. It symbolized that England was done with Catholicism. Not being Catholic, I was surprised to learn that the wine in the chalice was drunk only by the priest during mass. In the new Protestant service, every parishioner was obliged to sip from it. It was not just a religious innovation, but also social and political. It was a test of sorts. You had to drink to show your loyalty to Elizabeth I. To have refused to drink would have been a grave misstep. The cup was a form of physical propaganda introduced diocese by diocese across the country in a design dictated centrally by the Archbishop of Canterbury. In Shakespeare’s day church attendance was compulsory imposed by an act of parliament and enforced by law.

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 1, 2021 1:16 pm

Will do.

At the end of lecture 1 Prof Azim mentions that a small group of our ancestors left the cradle of Africa about 70,000 years ago. A date many believe homo sapiens had evolved full behavioural modernity by.

I like to think of that date as the point in time the cancer chimps went from benign to malignant – “Ok tribe listen up. We have a lot of territory to cover so we’re going to split up. You guys on the left – head south. Guys on the right – due east. The rest of us will head north…..Let’s move it people! We have an entire planet to infect.”

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 30, 2021 9:55 am

ZH: If we just stopped benefits to poor people (and, to be fair, cut the war machine down to size) and had a balanced budget, everything would be great! Trend, i.e. the 20th century, is destiny!

notabilia
April 29, 2021 4:58 am

Great to see an authentic appreciation for Chris Clugston’s immense, mightily compelling work. Buy both “Blip” and “Scarcity” and go without a couple of cans of Schlitz for a few days, and your wallet will be the same.
The problem always seems to be the same when discussing completely solid, hard-hitting work like Chris Clugston’s – the topic is too threatening, so it gets ignored, or gets temporarily diverted into the breakdown lane of odious popinjays like the three-named MAGA-friendly guy in upstate New York.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 29, 2021 2:29 am

Rob,
It can make you depressed and crazy especially with an explanation by MORT. How do you get people who are in denial to see reality? My spouse is in complete denial, she lives on hopium and a belief that human ingenuity can solve everything. Any discussion of our predicament just gets shut down.
I thought Tom Murphy’s takedown in his textbook of the belief in science fiction solutions (magical IMHO) to our predicaments was great, but people refuse to listen to any of that as it only gets them depressed. No one wants to hear about rapid population reduction or living with less as that message creates so much cognitive dissonance with the overwhelming propaganda from the MSM and society at large that everyone, except those here, deny the message. I’m becoming a cynic like James (Megacancer), we are just RNA dissipative structures.
AJ

Ian Graham
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 6:06 pm

I echo your sentiments and have been depressed intermittently becuse of what I now realize is our future. I made the move to asmall farm 14 yrs ago, learned some skills, built up a network, enoughness rules my life. Now I wait for the desperadoes…

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  AJ
April 29, 2021 9:53 am

How does anyone who urges lower consumption and rapid population reduction ever get married? Perhaps we withheld our true selves during the courting process.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Ken Barrows
April 29, 2021 2:32 pm

Or, people change over time. . . Since I am an older person, I met my wife 40+ years ago. Although we were both educated (and became more so as time went on) she was more into the status quo and I was more of an intellectual maverick. I always tried to challenge the boundaries of conventional thought (house in the burbs, new cars, travel, etc.). As time wore on I became more and more concerned with the environment. Then about 10 years ago I happened on Guy McPherson. I read everything he wrote and became much more aware of our overshoot problem (and much more depressed). I was still somewhat in denial. Then I started watching Paul Beckwith and hanging out on-line in the “Doomstead Diner”. Being somewhat prepared, resilient and lowering my carbon footprint became important. Then I found this web site, read Varki’s book, read Overshoot by Caton AND now am not in denial. BUT you are right, it would be hard to get married again. . . unless you found someone who understood our predicament. The only other person that I know that understands this (other than the people on this and a few other sites) is my daughter. So, if I wasn’t married I doubt if I could get married again.
AJ

madbobul
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 30, 2021 12:34 am

Most of us will always come alone on this path… I have one friend that undersands our predicament, still he prefers to deny it for most time and “get his piece of pie”…
I guess AJ may consider himself lucky if he has daughter that undersands what he understands…

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 30, 2021 2:09 am

Doomstead Diner has kinda gone defunct. RE had serious health issues sometime last year and has not been active. I stopped commenting there early in the pandemic because most commenters refused to acknowledge that the virus was something to worry about. Additionally, most of the comments started taking on personal attacks that divided along political lines. I didn’t need that. Politics is a waste of time at this point and appears to be a denial of our serious overshoot position.
AJ

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 30, 2021 1:45 pm

Never spent any time at Peak Prosperity forums other than to read those dealing with Covid-19 last year. I liked Chris’s response to the virus and his analysis of the government/media/Big Pharma messaging (lying) on it. Chris sought out the truth. As for their financial analysis I have lately thought that Peak Prosperity is kinda a ridiculous name – only if you deny where we are going with overshoot would you think you could be prosperous. I know Chris is trying to become much more resilient with his farm so I can’t criticize him personally, but no one should be looking for prosperity. Humanity’s avoidance of extinction alone might be the epitome of success.
AJ

Ian Graham
Reply to  AJ
May 7, 2021 6:10 pm

Catton’s Bottleneck is lesser known but just as crystal clear. Has Guy McP updated his 9 years to extinction forecast? I arranged for his coming to Ontario 4 yrs ago and got over my exuberance at getting his message out.

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Ken Barrows
April 30, 2021 6:19 pm

Look lads, there is more to marriage than seeing eye to eye on overshoot and doomsday scenarios. You get married so you can have fridge magnet fights and argue whose turn it is to put the dog out for a piss. Also, nice to have backup when you are taking the trash out late at night.

Apneaman
Apneaman
April 28, 2021 5:35 pm

From 2005

Ocean heat store makes climate change inevitable

No matter how well the world controls emissions of greenhouse gases, global climate change is inevitable, warn two new studies which take into account the oceans’ slow response to warming.

Even if greenhouse gases never rise beyond their present level, temperatures and sea levels will continue rising for another century or more because of a time lag in the oceans’ response to atmospheric temperatures, say researchers.

This time lag means policymakers cannot afford to wait to tackle climate change until its consequences become painful, because by then they will already be committed to further change, they urge. “The feeling is that if things are getting bad, you hit the stop button. But even if you do, the climate continues to change,” says Gerald Meehl, a climatologist at the US National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) in Boulder, Colorado.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7161-ocean-heat-store-makes-climate-change-inevitable/

………………….

2021

The ‘heat bombs’ destroying Arctic sea ice

“…shows in a new study how plumes of warm water are flowing into the Arctic Ocean from the Pacific Ocean and accelerating sea ice melt from below.

The research primarily funded by the Office of Naval Research describes so-called underwater “heat bombs” as one of many mechanisms by which global warming-driven encroachment is changing the nature of the Arctic Ocean faster than nearly any other place on Earth. It adds to a growing body of evidence that suggests that Arctic sea ice, a source of global climate stability, could disappear for larger portions of the year.”

“The rate of accelerating sea ice melt in the Arctic has been hard to predict accurately, in part because of all of the complex local feedbacks between ice, ocean and atmosphere; this work showcases the large role in warming that ocean water plays as part of those feedbacks,…”

“Warm, relatively salty water enters from the Pacific Ocean through the Bering Strait and then the Barrow Canyon off Alaska’s northern coast, which acts as a nozzle as the water flows through the narrow passage.

Because this water is saltier than the Arctic surface water, it is dense enough to “subduct,” or dive beneath, the fresh Arctic surface layer. Its movement creates pockets of very warm water that lurk below surface waters. Scientists have been seeing these pockets of warm sub-surface water strengthen over the last decade.”

https://phys.org/news/2021-04-arctic-sea-ice.html

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Apneaman
May 1, 2021 10:51 am

Marine heat waves are also destroying kelp forests. The heatwaves sweep through the oceans scorching marine ecosystems like forest fires. But there are also inspiring people trying to restore the blue forests with green gravel.

It’s a great technique. “It involves seeding small rocks with kelp propagules, rearing them in the lab and then out-planting them into the field. The juvenile kelps overgrow or move off the green gravel and attach to the underlying reef. This technique is cheap, simple, and does not require scuba diving, highly trained field workers, or engineered structures. The gravel can be scattering from a boat and can be up-scaled to treat large areas. Green gravel also represents an exciting avenue to ‘future proof’ restoration efforts. By seeding gravel with resilient species or assemblages, we may be able to enhance the resilience of kelp forests to future disturbance or climate change.”

https://www.greengravel.org/ https://www.greengravel.org/

There is a lot of bad stuff happening to our oceans but maybe this will buy us some time.

Ian Graham
Reply to  Apneaman
May 7, 2021 5:54 pm

Two links: Alex Smith’s Ecoshock.org this week: https://www.ecoshock.org/2021/05/abrupt-climate-change-is-possible.html
Posted on May 5, 2021, by Radio Ecoshock
Abrupt climate change: unimaginable changes in less than a lifetime. From Copenhagen Dr. Sune Olander Rasmussen explains the risks. Plus: From GEOMAR at the Helmholtz Centre for Ocean Research, Dr. Andreas Oschlies takes us on a tour of deep life and its future.
“Global heating pace risks ‘unstoppable’ sea level rise as Antarctic ice sheet melts…

“The current pace of global heating risks unleashing “rapid and unstoppable” sea level rise from the melting of Antarctica’s vast ice sheet [rapidly accelerating circa 2060, they suggest], a new research paper has warned.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/05/antarctica-ice-sheet-melting-global-heating-sea-level-rise-study

Perran
Perran
April 28, 2021 5:20 pm

Blip arrived in the mailbox today. I’d never heard of Clugston so thanks Rob for bringing him to my attention

Ken Barrows
Ken Barrows
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 28, 2021 1:12 pm

How does news survive? Advertising. Here in Colorado, the Denver Post is very excited to print something that says happy days will soon return. What choice does it have?

Apneaman
Apneaman
April 27, 2021 9:14 am

I am now registered with the BC government to be vaccinated – waiting for the call.

I’m trying to decide which vaccine to get. The Bill Gates 5G Brain Chip or Elders of Zion-Deep State Population Control Deluxe.

I was kinda leaning towards the Bill Gates 5G Brain Chip, but I don’t want to put up with all those damn security updates every day.

Decisions decisions…….

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Apneaman
April 27, 2021 6:14 pm

you forgot the “Schwab G. Reset AC Era Solution”

Apneaman
Apneaman
April 26, 2021 4:05 pm

Why So Much Suffering?

” …our survival drive is so strong that we’ll try and put a positive spin on the most awful things…. people need to do this… need to affirm life is so strong that we will go against the facts and say well you know whatever um i suffered all this as a child but it’s made me stronger… i know now understand people more yeah or something… some kind of nonsense that… some story that people will tell themselves just to try and make it all all right when actually it isn’t all all right so what’s the best way to deal with these basic mechanics of existence that create suffering well the best way to deal with it all is to understand it.

[Copy-N-pasted from transcript. Emphasis mine]

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 25, 2021 9:50 pm

The Companies Behind the Burning of the Amazon

“But the incentive for the destruction comes from large-scale international meat and soy animal feed companies like JBS and Cargill, and the global brands like Stop & Shop, Costco, McDonald’s, Walmart/Asda, and Sysco that buy from them and sell to the public. It is these companies that are creating the international demand that finances the fires and deforestation.”

https://stories.mightyearth.org/amazonfires/index.html

Here’s the headline you won’t see:

The Consumers behind the Companies Behind the Burning of the Amazon

Another case of innocent humans forced to behave (shop) at gunpoint.

The Amazon has been front & centre of the environmental movement since I was a teenager 40 years ago – ‘The lungs of the planet’ & all that. Everyone heard & seen it.

Face it, the only Amazon the chimps give a shit about is the one owned by Overlord Jeff Bezos where they get super-awesome deals on Brazilian hardwood flooring (every 5 years) & guilt free ‘sustainable’, ‘organic’, ‘fair trade’ _____.

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 26, 2021 1:59 pm

Not saying the old growth forests of BC are unimportant, but they are nowhere near as valuable as those of the Amazon for sheer biodiversity. Around 30% of the world’s species, and 10% of the world’s biodiversity, can be found there.

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 25, 2021 2:55 pm

1.5C? Really? For all intents & purposes, 1.5C is a lie. Doubly so when that little part about massive non existent industrialist scale carbon capture & storage to achieve it is barely touched or skipped over entirely.

Is 1.5 C an impossible target?

June 5, 2020

“Limiting warming to 1.5 C would be beneficial for the planet, said John Nielsen-Gammon, the Texas state climatologist and a professor at Texas A&M University. But he noted that reducing emissions to zero may not be enough to stop temperatures from rising.

Already, emitted CO2 would continue to warm the planet even without additional emissions, meaning carbon dioxide will actually need to be removed from the atmosphere to prevent further warming.

In an analysis last year, the IPCC reported that all pathways to 1.5 C require the use of technology that removes CO2 from the atmosphere. The report noted that such technologies are in limited use today.”

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1063320523

I’ve always thought pushing false hope was the cruellest cut of all, but perhaps I’m wrong & have it backwards. I just don’t see all these people telling others ‘it’s not too late!’ for nefarious reasons. It could be they believe it (need) or think they are doing folks a kindness or think hope is necessary to keep order, which is self serving, but far from nefarious.

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 25, 2021 1:28 pm

Great hockey analogy & Gretzky quote. I remember it well as a Canadian teen playing/obsessed with hockey (since the age of 4 when I first laced up). Not only was Gretzky the best anyone had seen, but he was different than anyone we’d every seen & it rubbed off on his teammates & made them better. Gretzky & the Oilers were so dominate the NHL changed some rules to try & equalize things & teams changed their core strategies to defensive ones which resulted in a number of years of boring hockey.

Perhaps the world would benefit from a bunch of Gretzky like leaders who see different & all have enforces like Gretzky had with Dave Semenko.

What’s that? You refuse to curb your emissions? – You’re on Semenko!

Don’t want to change your agriculture practises? Fine. – SEMENKO!

SomeoneInAsia
SomeoneInAsia
April 25, 2021 9:53 am

As I see it, Clugston’s work is just a more updated edition of James Howard Kunstler’s The Long Emergency.

For centuries if not millennia non-Western sociocultural milieux such as China thrived on the sustainable use of RNRs. They weren’t perfect societies (heck, name me one), but at least they were sustainable and didn’t jeopardize the continued tenure of humanity on this planet. Then the Western world came along and spread its gospel of industrialization around, gaining converts everywhere and all too often through the barrel of a gun. Hence the sorry state of affairs we all face now.

I don’t buy the nonsense that the non-Western milieux themselves wanted to industrialize and weren’t forced to. Leaving behind a way of life one had been following for millennia to change to a new way of life can only be the most psychologically painful experience possible, no matter how many good things the new way of life may purportedly offer (and it has turned out that this new way of life isn’t going to have that many good things to offer after all). All too often the single overriding reason for the non-Western world to industrialize has been: if others industrialize and you don’t, it will be easy for others to trample on you.

We non-Westerners have therefore had to endure immense psychological, cultural and societal traumas and upheavals — no telling how much blood and how many tears were shed — as we left our cherished traditional ways of life behind in our bid to industrialize. Now that we’ve finally settled down to this new way of life, another even more terrible upheaval looms on the horizon. Is it not enough what we’ve had to go through in the past couple hundred years?

I therefore want to ask: what has the West got to be proud about? What number of Shakespeares, Beethovens, Newtons and Leonardos will make up for this crime — the crime of bringing about the Industrial Revolution and compelling everyone to tread the same sorry path to Hell?

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 27, 2021 6:36 pm

What has the West got to be proud of? I dunno… but I felt you were kinda begging for someone to come up with that Python skit “What have the Romans ever done for us?”

This might be minor, but I think it is something we can be proud of – the West has given us people like Steven M. Wise of the NonHuman Rights project who fight for the habeas corpus of individual great apes, elephants, dolphins, and whales held in captivity across the US.

Xabier
Xabier
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 28, 2021 12:33 pm

Achievements. in art architecture, literature and music at least equal to those of ancient China. Persia, India, Greece, etc. Nothing to be ashamed of!

Everything comes to dust, nothing endures, it’s all fugitive – which is the beauty.

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  Xabier
April 30, 2021 6:30 pm

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Percy Bysshe Shelley

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  SomeoneInAsia
April 25, 2021 12:25 pm

Lame, childish version of how it went down. I only know 1 person from SE Asia, & a handful from India, but none of them sound like you. Plenty of people here in N America do sound like you – self loathing progressive white people pimping a revised and cherry picked Manichean narrative version of history (whites all bad, everyone else innocent & pure) and who’s self loathing is a ruse. It’s actually tribal virtue signalling. Further, the way in which you describe ‘non westerns’ as helpless tiny babies who had their candy stolen is kinda insulting to them don’t you think? That’s also how many progressives in the US portray & treat blacks & other racial minorities.
‘Aweee aren’t you just the sweetest little things – don’t you worry bout a thing. Were here to help. We know best’.

I suppose it’s our fault y’all bred like rabbits & grew the worlds biggest two legged Cancer tribes? Evil Whitey Round eye forcing y’all to strip & fuck at gun point. Gimme a break. Y’all shit out kids like we shit out shit.

Perhaps the ‘non west’ will win an Oscar this evening.

For 5 + billion people who were forced into an evil way of life by whitey round eye, y’all are doing a world class job of acting like you like it – dopamine hits all around yee haw! The added touch of spending trillions on nukes & the military to defend said techno industrial life style is Par Excellence.

And the Oscar for best acting by an ensemble goes to – ‘the non west’ in ‘The White Devil Made Us Do It’

C’mon dude, it’s obvious that y’all are more than a little envious & still somewhat flabbergasted at how a few uncouth N European tribes, a couple generations removed from barbarism & mud huts, could conquer & control much of the worlds people resources & trade for 500 years.

Let’s not pretend that that’s not exactly what China’s in the process of doing right now. Doing it rather well I’d say although the competition are decadent, disunited & dumbed down.

Xabier
Xabier
Reply to  Apneaman
April 28, 2021 12:37 pm

China is very late to the party: all dressed up, smiling, looking forward to getting laid: but the champagne’s already going flat and mostly gone anyway…..

Mandrake
Mandrake
Reply to  SomeoneInAsia
April 25, 2021 8:38 pm

On the issue of Western guilt. Suppose there are three separate monkey troops occupying contiguous territory. Nearby is a human camp with treats. One of the troops raids this camp for the peanuts . To do this, they need to take initiative, cooperate and use a rudimentary tool to open a box storing the peanuts. They bring back their haul but unfortunately the loot is infected with a virus. The virus kills 75% of the population. The other troops, smelling the peanuts from afar and sensing a nice quiet lull in activity come over to investigate, get infected and suffer a similar mortality rate. Is the troop that launched the peanut raid uniquely evil in some special simian way?

Ed
Ed
April 25, 2021 7:24 am

Hi Rob, I plan on reading Blip. Does this include all the information in Scarcity or are both recommended? Thanks.

Ed
Ed
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 26, 2021 8:25 am

Thanks, ordered it

trackback
April 25, 2021 4:31 am

[…] Overshoot Doubt? Chris Clugston Kills It […]

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 25, 2021 2:10 am

No discussion of the intermittency problem and/or storage. No discussion of how to expand the grid. No discussion of how will electricity replace diesel fuel. No discussion of how much CO2 is going to be produced to build this solar out. NO discussion of lowering our level of consumption or population. Just hopium and denial.
AJ

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 24, 2021 3:55 pm

Sounds serious.

I’ll still probably be able to afford the rent with a modest price increase in food. I might have to cut down to only 5 boxes of ‘Little Diabetes’ snack cakes & just two 2L bottles of Mountain Dew per day, but I’ll solider on.
I’m very resilient like that.

AJ
AJ
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 23, 2021 1:31 am

My feelings exactly. If we can’t collapse the economy we can’t even get started on population reduction/downsizing our consumption. All the economic talk/market hype wants is more growth, MORE GROWTH. The vast majority is in denial that we have a problem with growth of population, consumption or the economy. Unless we can get degrowth we are screwed. The problem is that we need the plane (civilization) on a rapid glide down to a steady state/sustainable landing – and we don’t know if it will just fall from the sky and crash and burn instead. But we needed to have started down long ago, better now today than tomorrow.
AJ

Mick North
Mick North
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 23, 2021 4:25 am

The poster Polybius on Peak Oil (I know) has posted again on bitcoin. I don’t really understand and don’t own any bitcoin but this seems reasonable to me -can any of the more technically able (in bitcoin matters) posters here explain where he is wrong- if he is? If it looks like a scam?

“In simple terms, Bitcoin is an online excel spreadsheet globally kept in sync by the Internet. You can also think of it like a giant shared google sheets collaborative document shared live publicly with the globe. This synchronized spreadsheet contains rows full of transaction entries logging every transaction that ever occurs. The moment the very first entry hits the first/top row of this digital excel bookkeeping ledger the virtual currency of bitcoin came into existence from nothing. Each bitcoin that comes into existence does not take an existing dollar out of circulation, its entirely an additive act and not one of substitution…

Furthermore, Bitcoin just happens to be the first tab of the spreadsheet and anyone in the world can start their very own tab and thereby ushering into existence an entirely new spreadsheet and new virtual currency. There is no limit to the amount of tabs that can be created but because bitcoin spreadsheet tab was the first tab and also the default tab, it currently enjoys the first mover advantage and the social “network effects” of popularity and adoption…

Think back to when some co-workers at your company started a football squares and passed around the paper sheet asking people to mark and buy up squares…. in the end someone won while most people lost. It was all games and fun even though real money was involved you knew that this activity never created any value nor did it generate any wealth, it merely reshuffled the existing pooled money around and redistributed it to a few.

So whenever you buy or “invest” in bitcoin you are also merely just paying someone real money to buy up individual cells or rows on the first tab of this digital excel spreadsheet. It is really just a game of hot potatoes, from bitcoins initial start at 0.01 USD per bitcoin to its recent peak of $64,000 per bitcoin, its been on average one long chain of successive buying and reselling of rows of this spreadsheet. On average in the long run each subsequent person who bought up a row of the spreadsheet was willing to pay more that what the previous owner had himself paid to previously acquire it… in other words, when the current owner of a row or rows of this spreadsheet wants to sell it to another buyer he fully hopes and expects to be able to find a new buyer willing to pay even more and thereby pocket a profit…

People talk of bitcoin as a game charger, a hedge against inflation, a safe haven, or some sort of savior of the world… how because of the rise of all cryptocurrencies its suddenly brought so much new wealth into the world or somehow unlocked so much potential…

But if you understand the fundamentals of what bitcoin actually is, an online excel spreadsheet shared globally where each row represented a transaction of buying or selling a particular row, then its crystal clear bitcoin,not unlike the football squares, was never going to solve anything… its not a storage of wealth nor is it a source of energy nor does it have any intrinsic value whatsoever…

As far as the Tulip mania analogy goes, I’ve said it before, Bitcoin is more akin to the paper buying and selling of futures contracts of an entirely fictitious made-up flower that no one has actually seen and in fact has never even existed in the first place.”

Last edited by Polybius on Wed 21 Apr 2021, 20:29:31, edited 1 time in total.
Polybius

David Pursel
David Pursel
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 22, 2021 3:40 pm

I may have stated this before here but it’s worth my repeating. Any and every time I’ve spoken with friends and acquaintances holding left wing and/or environmentalist views this is by far (BY FAR!) their biggest “blind spot”. It’s exasperating and one of the (many) reasons I don’t have as many friends/acquaintances as I once did.

Ian Graham
Reply to  David Pursel
April 26, 2021 6:22 pm

I’m totally a left wing environmentalist and retired too! and I totally get the population thing. So clear that it has been anathema since Malthus. so it must not be just about ‘leftwing’and ‘environmentalism’. JUst like there are polymaths that get it and ones that don’t. Tangent: most every physicist in the whole world ignores Tim Garrett’s Relation of energy consumption and total accumulated human production, but if they didn’t deny it, we would have been able to resolve theclimate emergency 30 years ago when Hansen blew the whistle. (btw, and i’m a retired business entrepreneur and mba too: where does that place me in the firmament?)

theblondbeast
theblondbeast
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 11, 2021 1:37 pm

I’ve usually gotten anger in response to bringing it up. I think it’s obvious what we will do is what we’ve always done – fought with others over resources. I also think it won’t look like this is what we’re doing – it will be talked about in terms of political economy.

Sam Hopkins
Sam Hopkins
April 21, 2021 8:23 pm

Thanks, Rob, for providing a great overview of Chris Clugston’s work. And I am pleased to see how many comments it has already received.

Bruce Turton
Bruce Turton
April 21, 2021 11:50 am

Although I have not finished it yet, Derrick Jensen et al’s book Bright Green Lies has opened up quite a bit about even those things that we might think are “conservation” things, like LED lighting for one. I still look forward to where they are taking their analyses.

Ian Graham
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 26, 2021 6:07 pm

Jack Alpert at http://www.skil.org has worked out the numbers, the mechanism and the localities, just has no answer for how to get the ‘democratically supported population reduction’ policies in place. Its pretty benign on the face: just ensure more people die of natural causes than are born for about 25 years, and we’re in the zone!

Ian Graham
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
May 7, 2021 5:35 pm

you got the numbers approx but the good news is that if there was to be a new social contract to limite births by lottery, natural deaths would rapidly exceed birth and the lottery would be extended. I think it w as 1 in 47 would have the right each year to bear a child, at the outset.

Ian Graham
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
November 3, 2021 5:55 pm

who’s persuaded that there has been a depopulation agenda in America at least, since the 1940s? This article is a history of that: https://thecovidblog.com/2021/10/15/depopulation-agenda-planned-parenthood-from-its-documented-beginnings-in-1916-race-based-eugenics-to-2021-global-genocide/
Personally, I don’t know what to think about this. Yes there are too many humans on the planet, made worse by the gigantic biomass of our domesticated food animals. No I don’t think there should be a covert plan to eliminate, sterilize, infect, etc. the unwanted (and who decides?).

Ian Graham
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
November 4, 2021 5:09 pm

Hi Rob,
Maybe you are too busy but perhaps you could take a read through the essay. Just because population is still r ising globally is not to say there is not a multi-faceted campaign to reduce it. Birth rates in industrialized c ountries are indeed below replacement rate. Not low enough imo.

Nehemiah
Reply to  Ian Graham
August 13, 2021 11:45 am

In the US and many other countries, we are already “in the zone.” Native born fertility is consistently below replacement. Only pro-immigration policies keep the population growing in the US and many other western countries (and this seems to be a policy only in western countries). Furthermore, once they arrive here, the first generation of immigrants proceed to produce more offspring on average than their national counterparts who remained in their native lands. Without the Hart-Celler immigration act of 1965, the US would likely have a smaller population today than when that act was passed. Pro-immigration is pro-population growth, and I think this politically motivated enthusiasm for immigration is why the left, which used to support policies to curb fertility in the past, no longer does so, and why they now join libertarians in denouncing “neo-Malthusianism.”

Michael Dowd
Michael Dowd
April 20, 2021 3:33 pm

Delighted you discovered Chris Clugston, Rob!
Beautiful mind and heart… beautiful man!
Thanks for lifting him up here!

theblondbeast
theblondbeast
April 20, 2021 12:19 pm

Thanks for this! Nice to find new authors through your work.

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 20, 2021 1:12 pm

Rob, you’ll free up shit loads of time if you switch to a list of polymaths who are NOT in denial.

When it comes to over population, and a few other overshoot ‘taboos’ I’m not sure a list is helpful since it’s based on their public comments. Invite a gang of polymaths & prominent academics to a west-coast barbecue & bonfire on the beach, get them all shitfaced, then bring up over population & the other overshoot ‘taboos’. Bye bye list.

May 12, 2010

Why Is Population Control Such a Radioactive Topic?

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/05/population-forum/

I’m an environmental journalist, but I never write about overpopulation. Here’s why.

Since you asked (many times).

By David Roberts@drvolts Updated Nov 29, 2018, 11:25am EST

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/9/26/16356524/the-population-question

Is it time to end the population taboo?
by Frances Kissling , Peter Singer | 26 Jun 2018

By Frances Kissling, Jotham Musinguzi and Peter Singer

Frances Kissling is the president of the Center for Health, Ethics and Social Policy and is on the board of The Life You Can Save. Jotham Musinguzi is director general of Uganda’s National Population Council. Peter Singer is the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University and is The Life You Can Save’s Founder.

This article was first published in the Washington Post, June 18, 2018

https://www.thelifeyoucansave.org/blog/is-it-time-to-end-the-population-taboo/

I remember watching a tv news segment of James Hansen testifying to the US senate in 1988 giving them & the world what I call the first “no doubt” AGW warning.

That’s when the global warming conversation really got underway & the talking has increased by the day & once residential internet service became widespread it took an effort to avoid the topic. Today the consensus by scientists who study climate is virtually 100% that it’s caused by humans & very bad at best.

What has that 33 years of climate talk accomplished?

CO2 1988 – 351ppm

CO2 2021 – 421ppm

If one understands the implications & that humans are still piling on by the day, there’s nothing left to say…….. except maybe ‘Sorry’ to the grand kids.

Say tomorrow that the world starts talking about population control like they’ve talked about climate change for the last 33 years. So?

We’ve seen this act (COP) repeat over and over, ever since COP1 in Berlin in 1995, as each successive COP-ending-ceremony finds the Parties congratulating each other, slaps on the back, for one more successful climate conference of 20,000-30,000 able-bodied professionals wiped-out from overconsumption of Beluga caviar and Domaine de la Romanee-Conti, but subsequently carbon emissions increase the following year, and every following year thereafter. What’s to congratulate?

More to the point, the annualized CO2 emissions rate is +60% since COP1, not decreasing, not going down, not once. After 25 years of the same identical pattern, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the take-home-work from all 25 COPs mysteriously turns into the antithesis of the mission statement of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/11/20/expert-ipcc-reviewer-speaks-out/

CO2 421ppm & rising. There’s your population control.

Peter Salonius
Peter Salonius
April 20, 2021 9:50 am

I read the Peter Watts rant that Rob Mielcarski referred to (above).

Watts appears to actually believe that humans and their carbon containing greenhouse gas emissions are the drivers of climate change and that there is a climate crisis.

Rob here. Contra arguments are welcome provided they are grounded in science. I have deleted the balance of this comment.

Peter Salonius
Peter Salonius
Reply to  Peter Salonius
April 20, 2021 10:33 am

The comment I made and that Rob deleted, included Dr. Happer’s presentation that offered basic ROCK SOLID physics: see:

CO₂ is not a Pollutant — Exposing the Fraud Behind the Global Reset/Green New Deal

Rob here, link deleted.
It took me about 20 seconds to confirm that Happer is not grounded in science:
https://skepticalscience.com/William_Happer_arg.htm
https://www.heartland.org/about-us/who-we-are/william-happer
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/dec/08/greenpeace-exposes-sceptics-cast-doubt-climate-science

Apneaman
Apneaman
Reply to  Peter Salonius
April 20, 2021 11:18 am

Thanks Peter. This blog totally needs more input from white male American conservative deniers. The whole world needs more actually, which is sad since your tribe has suffered such a major die back the last few decades & looks to be the next ideology slated for extinction.

I know y’all white male American conservatives think you’re eternal (don’t they all), but your time is almost up. Like gods, religions & empires, ideologies come & go.

Some people find it sad watching your tribe desperately struggle to remain relevant in a world that rejects your primitive worldview & has passed you by.

I’m not one of those who find your clinging desperation sad. Quite the opposite. I am amused.

Trump & the MAGA crisis cult are fucking hilarious. Your country has pretty much become a global laughing stock. MAGA-tards are like a A freak show within a freak show.

You’re a real trooper Petey. Most of your tribe have all but given up on climate denial & put all their energies into looking stupid via the great reset & other imagined Boogeymen.

It’s all slipping away Pete. The signs are everywhere. Open your eyes Pete.

Poll: American Church Membership Drops Below 50% For First Time

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/03/29/poll-american-church-membership-drops-below-50-for-first-time/?sh=33ebeffe2d18

Shawn
Shawn
Reply to  Apneaman
April 20, 2021 3:44 pm

Yes, Apneaman, my tribe appears to be on the wane in general, and the conservative power structure side in particular. And possibly along with all the other tribes as a result of many of our cultural values/memes and technologies being adopted those tribes. Civilizations are always a mixture of good and bad, and the bad now is on full display, or at least, under full retrospective review. Under review and criticism by the people who are for the most part alive today because of that culture and its technology. Yes, we conquered most of the world and displaced or replaced a lot of people. But now our reproductive rates are down to less 2 in most places. Liberal modernity with the loss of traditional values and religiosity, seems to do that, at least to our tribe.

We are left to pout in public about our fate and take rearguard actions to preserve our powers. I admit, it is a bit sad to watch. On the bright side, I suppose, our tribe did invent antibiotics etc. and industrial agriculture, and the internet. Most people reading this blog, and almost everyone complaining about the old guard is alive today in large part because of that white male dominated culture coming out of Europe. (Please, I have no political affiliations, I am just an observer of the big picture….and noting the irony in our situation.)

How might it have been different? Has anyone ever written an alternative history of the world where humans lived wisely and in balance with the nature? I would be interested in that. Would an Islamic culture have kept fossil fuels in the ground, and over time developed liberal values, and a harmonious relationship with nature? A Sino or Hindu culture? Was North America before Columbus and the introduction of foreign diseases a garden of Eden of peaceful tribes co-existing in perfect harmony? Even if we can sustain or resource base, can this civilization be voluntarily transformed into a multi-tribal socialist paradise in harmony with nature, as envisioned by some? Mostly rhetorical questions.

In the U.S., we are living through a demographic transition. Admittedly, the old guard is making it easy to for those who want to point fingers and throw them under the bus as the cause for all of our current problems.

Probably, large transitions of power to different groups will take place the U.S. in the coming years.

I am just not sure that the new bosses will be any better than the old bosses.

P.S.
(Neural plasticity begins to decline at age 25 or so – the median age of white males is now above 40 I believe. Don’t expect us to change…coping with new information consists of denying that information so that our established brain wired perceptions of the world do not have to change. Memory, thoughts, perception, are about built neural structures and connections, not some ephemeral fleeting thing. Apneaman, I have read many things from you, no doubt this is not new info. I am just using your post as a prompt for my thoughts. Thanks.)

Simon Wilson
Simon Wilson
April 20, 2021 2:01 am

So much of the economic expansion and resource consumption has gone hand in hand with political egalitarianism and may be said to have enabled it. With rapid depletion of resources and a reduction in available wealth and wealth benefits then a new political reality comes into existence with the resources being used exclusively by a small minority of ‘powerful’ individuals at the expense of the majority who become suppressed and gradually eliminated. Already leaders with a non inclusive social policy are being ‘elected’, i.e. promoted by the elite so that, initially, social minorities who are judged as inferior will be eliminated and, with the identification of further social fractions, they in turn will become the political victims eventually leaving only the masters and the subservient underclass. By this means the overconsuming elite will survive.

Peter Salonius
Peter Salonius
Reply to  Simon Wilson
April 20, 2021 7:43 am

Chris Clugston dates the origin of our dillema to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution – when we began to use non renewable resources unsustainably.

I have dated the origin of our dilemma to the beginning of agriculture —–
—-calling it ‘THE 10,000 YEAR MISUNDERSTANDING’

Both of us reach the same conclusion:…….Human numbers will shrink (voluntariily or involuntarilly) to levels that can be supported by renewable resource utilization….. see my paper at

http://theoildrum.com/node/4628

Peter Salonius

Mick North
Mick North
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 20, 2021 9:34 am

I blame the Earth’s decision to start sequestering carbon about half a billion years ago. It recently decided (about a 100,000 years ago) it needed it back in the atmosphere as quickly as possible (geological forces were to slow for its purposes) so it picked on one of the monkey species available, to liberate it (presumably the Neanderthals were not up to the task).
Upright stance, opposable thumbs, large brain, operating under The MPP and for the coup de gras, to allow it to operate without regard to its own survival, evolution implanted a special extended TOM mortality denial module so these monkeys were always ready to deny unpleasant facts.
And here we are – job’s a good’un as we say.

Perran
Perran
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
April 21, 2021 6:43 am

Rob, have you read Guns, germs and steel by Jarrod Diamond? I found it very enlightening. It’s well worth the read if you haven’t done so already.