By Gaia Gardener: On Our Hall of Denial Mirrors

Today we have another guest post by a member of the un-Denial community, Gaia Gardener, who posted these thoughts on denial as a comment. I thought they were interesting enough to warrant promoting them to a more visible post.

Hello friends, thank you for a very interesting discussion about the realities of denial and how we humans seem to be able to manipulate all perceptions to fit our chosen narrative, whether or not we are consciously aware of our programmed beliefs however they were initialised and ingrained.

I am wondering if we can look at another subject, removed from overshoot, in which denial plays a big role in our actions/inactions so we can step back and dissect out a bit more how denial originates and becomes intrenched without us even realising our immersion in it, just like we in the small minority see happening to the masses and even polymaths in regards to overshoot denial.

The topic I think can fit the bill is the question of the ethics of eating animals, namely farmed animals which we consume in the billions every year. I won’t cover using animals for our labour and experimentation as the ethics of these actions can be construed to be justified in benefitting humankind which the majority of human beings would be in favour of. But the eating of animals in the modern world is not only unnecessary (and we can be spared the example of Inuits or other very minority population cultures who rely solely on animal products for sustenance, we do not have their situation in the least) but in fact there is convincing evidence that it is harmful to both our physical bodies and the planet, but for the sake of this argument, one need not consider either of those reasons to engage in a discussion of why we cannot eat animals nor their products if we believe we have a moral obligation to another sentient being. Let’s face it–we eat meat because we were brought up to do so and it tastes good (to most human taste buds) and it’s readily available without much effort on our part. However, the fact that animals suffer solely for our pleasure, tradition, and convenience is not enough moral ground to do so, for one can easily see how this disconnect can apply to any sentient being, including other humans, which is so obviously not an ethical choice. And yet, we are in complete denial that it is okay to eat chicken, cow, and pig but outrageously wrong to eat dog, cat, or horse. It is fine for us to imprison a member of a food species in the most horrendous conditions but we can be charged with abusing and neglecting other species we call our domestic companions. We can kill a food species animal way before their natural life span in a most horrific manner (everyone knows a slaughterhouse isn’t a happy place) so we can buy our sanitized plastic-wrapped packages of pork, beef, and healthy white meat chicken, but if we organise a dog fight and enjoy it, that is disgusting and shameful. You’re right, it’s not about education (most of us know that a live being had to be killed to get meat on the plate), or even more extreme forms of presenting the facts (how many of us would volunteer to witness what happens in a slaughterhouse, or even more tellingly, choose that as our job?). Yes, we have been lied to about happy free-range chickens or happy cows enjoying being milked on the happy dairy farm, but how many of us actually have spared more thought for what really happens in these industries, we’re only too happy ourselves to buy the more expensive organic or free-range option as if that absolves us from the guilt we still harbour knowing that no matter how happy the picture of the old MacDonald’s farm, we know this is a fantasy. Every animal still comes to an end in a way far from their natural choice and inclination.

I can sense the mounting justifications and counter-arguments–we need meat for our health or else we would get sick and die, if we didn’t raise the food animal they wouldn’t have a chance at life at all, what about if we were stuck on an island with only rabbits to eat, you can see how inane these points are, and generally stated to obfuscate the moral issue at hand. I am talking about modern day humans who now have access to a wide range of very suitable and healthful plant-based protein, and the methods we use to obtain our meatstuffs, even the question of whether or not it is our evolutionary diet (very debatable) isn’t the point here. The point is our denial of other factors which should be considered when making the choice of whether it is ethical to eat farmed animals, or even a beloved family pet lamb (just these words should put it in perspective that it isn’t but somehow we still do it–is that denial? ) What is it that keeps the majority of people still reaching for their burgers and steaks and fried chicken and bacon and eggs despite knowing what everyone should know? Is it denial of the truth because to face the ethical question front on would demand a choice and most humans just cannot overcome the continuation of pleasure, tradition, and ease of living, especially if it means realising it is a morally wrong thing to do so. So it is far easier to adopt cognitive disconnect, join the masses who are in your camp, degrade and exclude those who are not, and just keep doing what you want for one more day after day as long as it can last because at least you got to enjoy it and no one can take that away. Sound familiar? See how easy denial becomes just our way of perceiving our reality, and that is why I chose this example to prove that point. Every thought that is possibly going through your head now is a function of denial, one way or another, and none of it was even conscious before I brought this so called controversial topic up–if one can deem supporting active suffering of sentient beings just because we like it, to have any controversy attached.

I guess what I’m trying to express, which is in full agreement with what has been discussed, is that all of us have the capacity for denial (whether or not MORT is the primal reason) but we can’t see it as denial when we’re in the thick of it because that is just our chosen narrative. The way we dichotomise over overshoot, population control, Covid, Russia, just about any topic you can name, all confirm this. Only others outside that narrative (and usually the minority) can see that there is another perspective (because it’s their reality) and then call out the majority as in denial, which is exactly what the majority thinks of the outliers! It’s like that endless hall of mirrors reflecting back to you ad infinitum, whichever way one looks, there’s another image looking away from you, too, with the prime cause of the illusion being your own presence and perception of your reality. I think denial is a bit like that–it’s what holds us in our place, and helps define our sense of self by creating another version of possible self to bounce off of. I’m not saying there’s any right or wrong in this, it just seems to be how we are wired and until now, it has kept us on the survival ascendancy (that and a whole heck of fossil fuels!)

I think a good question to always be ready to ask ourselves in any situation to draw out denial is “What knowledge or understanding or different perspective that I may not have now but is available to gain or learn, would change or enhance the way I see the situation? ” Try it, it is very hard to allow oneself the possibility of overcoming our deep-rooted beliefs but yet that is precisely the attitude it will take for us to change them. Forcing education upon others doesn’t work as we have seen, it has to come from a self-directed intention to fill the knowledge gaps (isn’t that how we all arrived at our overshoot awareness and acceptance? We didn’t find this site because we were lectured into it, we found it because we sought it out) and then an even more entropy defying self push to change our actions to match our new insights. If the motivation is great enough, this can and will happen, but everyone has a different threshold before the fire is lit under our bums. Maybe that is why we need to head hell-bent towards full-on collapse, perhaps the only way to save ourselves is to first come within a nanometer of destroying ourselves. I still take comfort and security from the once inviolable Newton’s third law and trust that is will prove true for this case, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Let us pray for calamity that we will reach that opposite reaction with the same energy swinging us out of our doom as going into it, and preferably very soon!

Namaste, everyone. Thanks for bearing with another Gaia attack.

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Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 21, 2022 10:08 pm

Poignant thoughts indeed, Rob. But Pandora’s box has been opened too long ago and Homo sapiens has filled every corner of this globe (if globes can have corners), and we can’t put ourselves back into the box–that would make herding cats look like child’s play! If we were to inhabit only those climes neither Canada frigid nor Calcutta steamy, then we would be a smaller footprint for sure.

Interesting to bring up Richard Heinberg who was just last week a guest at a forum called Talking Collapse put on by my husband’s University of Tasmania. Once again, too little, too late and nothing new for us but it did seem that from the Q and A afterwards, some in the audience finally got the picture that things are serious. A brave soul asked about population reduction and that was squarely batted away by saying it was in the too hard basket, what kind of answer is that! That totally took away much credibility for me, but then again, who in the public collapsesphere really has fronted up to this? Even Nate Hagens who teaches youngsters who need to make that crucial decision to withhold child bearing, probably hasn’t come out to clearly advocate that in no uncertain terms.

The child wonders, Can I have a child? The adult wonders, Should I? If only this were true! Can and Should are very different questions, indeed but unfortunately we seem to be only children here when it comes to this issue. Does it strike others here as ironic that most people spend far more thought and effort deciding what breed of dog to get (or make of car or mobile phone) than whether or not to bring another human being into the world. When it comes to making the decision for having kids, it’s like the shoot first, ask questions later mentality. I guess that describes getting pregnant pretty well. Sooooo…maybe it’s a matter of making sure we’re shooting blanks, then?

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 22, 2022 3:14 am

For a split second there I thought the title The Quiet Part Out Loud was going to be Nate finally opening up the population reduction discussion, but no such luck. Sigh.

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 21, 2022 9:45 pm

Don’t let one doco completely change your respect of the channel, Rob. Surely you can’t like everything a news source does? By the way, I haven’t watched that doco yet but you’ve prompted me to do so, thanks.

Regarding Nato expansion (which I assume is what you’re referring to), why did Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joining Nato not trigger a nuclear war and how come Finland gets to join without much action from Russia?

Also, are there any existential threats for Russia, at the moment?

Mike Roberts
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 21, 2022 10:12 pm

I just listened to the podcast (I assume that’s what you were referring to) and it was focused on whether and how Putin might use nuclear weapons in the war with Ukraine. So I’m not sure your criticism is valid, Rob. It made no attempt to either justify or criticise the action Putin has taken in Ukraine, it simply starts from the fact that the war is going on, what might trigger a nuclear attack and how such an attack might be performed.

Anonymous
Anonymous
October 21, 2022 10:18 am

This is the best explanation of why England is collapsing, and soon other Countries, to.https://eand.co/why-britain-is-collapsing-e5590018e04c

Peter
Peter
Reply to  Anonymous
October 21, 2022 10:21 am

I didn’t mean to post that anonymously-I’m not ashamed of my inveterate Left Wing allegiance.

Jef Jelten
Jef Jelten
Reply to  Anonymous
October 21, 2022 5:47 pm

I believe he is wrong. The UK left the EU because they knew and are most likely in on the collapse of Europe. This will be messy but it will generate huge demand destruction (DD) slowing down the depletion of many finite natural resources and the destruction of the biosphere.

Demand destruction is the name of the game from here on out…coming to a a theatre near you!

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Jef Jelten
October 21, 2022 9:38 pm

Hello Jef,
A play with semantics here–do you mean Demand destruction! as in an imperative statement as well as demand as a thing to be destructed? Either way, I think we’re going to see both. DD also reminds me of D-Day, long playing in this catastrophe theatre. Hope you and your family are going well as can be, all things considered.

Jef Jelten
Jef Jelten
Reply to  Gaia gardener
October 22, 2022 8:56 am

Gaia – I like what you did there;-}

WOrking on getting all my cover crops in. Big fan of fava. If you pull a fava when they are only a foot or so high you can see all there white nodules on the roots, serious nitrogen baby! I’m one of those crazy guys who actually likes to eat fava too.

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Jef Jelten
October 23, 2022 1:46 am

Hi there Jef,
I’m a fava fan, too! We call them broad beans here in Australia. The mature beans are amazing roasted, just toss the shelled beans with some olive oil and salt single layer in a pan and roast at 200 degrees C until they turn brown at the edges and the outer peel starts to crack, about 10 minutes. Chewy and nutty on the outside and creamy on the inside, so delicious and simple.
Also, broad beans make a great hummus, substitute chick peas with boiled (or roasted) beans, they give a depth of earthiness that can use more vinegar (try balsamic) to balance. Or try stirring in a spoonful of toasted sesame oil into the puree, that goes really well with favas, too.
If for some reason you get sick of the beans, you can eat the growing tips of the plants, use them in a stir fry, they have a nice mild, pea-like flavour.
Great to hear you’re improving the nitrogen capacity in your soil and carbon, too, with the spent bean plants.
What would we do without our gardens to give us sanctuary from the insanity just outside our gate?

Jef Jelten
Jef Jelten
Reply to  Gaia gardener
October 23, 2022 12:32 pm

Just to be clear you have to cut down and turn in most cover crops before they fruit. Nitrogen locking plants are saving up that nitrogen storing it in the nodules on the roots so that they can use it later when the big push to flower and fruit comes and they use up most if not all of it.

I only let about 10% of the Fava I grow go all the way to beans which I eat and save for seed.

Cheers! jef

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 20, 2022 12:46 pm

I’ve been working on a nuclear article for some time. I’ve got a skeleton draft I could send you. If you like it I can finish it

monk
October 19, 2022 12:26 pm

I seriously want to know, how does Gail’s blog (which is so good) attract the most stupid people in the comment section? What is going on? Is it just that others like Rob, Tim G, Tom M, JMG etc. are better at cleaning up poor comments. JHK’s comments sections are also a complete waste of time.
Rob you do a fantastic job with your blog!

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 20, 2022 12:39 pm

As I tried to say to FE, it’s not his position on things like Covid that is the problem. It’s the manner in which he conducts himself and the spamming level of comments he produces. He clearly annoys a lot of people on OFW and Gail sides with him when he is abusive to other commentators.
I’ve just spent a couple of days trolling him back for LOLz. He seems to be incredibly narcissistic and suffers from delusions of grandeur.
I hate to say it, but I tend to form a very low opinion of people who are easily influenced or manipulated by narcissists. He makes Gail look bad.
The other thing is, people like him do this on purpose to disrupt otherwise good blogs and derail important conversations. See this article for example: https://ronaldthomaswest.com/2017/08/21/the-gentlepersons-guide-to-forum-spies/

nikoB
nikoB
Reply to  monk
October 20, 2022 2:50 pm

Tis true that OFW comments were more level headed when FE wasn’t commenting for a few years.
But let me point out your own delusion or denial here Monk (with all respect), even if FE and others that seem nutty were gone Gail’s blog would still have no impact anyway. Just like this most excellent blog basically no one reads it except for a handful of people and we are interested in each others comments and news curating.

No matter how concise and logically explained to people, the message is undesirable so therefore ignored. I have been reading these blogs and commenting on them for near 20 years. I have lost friends over these discussions. The only thing that I have learnt is that very very very few people get our predicament (or even understand that that is different to a problem) and that without facing our biggest issue which is population control in a fair and moral way (whatever that is) we are doomed to collapse.

Enjoy the ride, it is short and ………………….(fill in your own blank).

Please keep commenting Monk on both sites. Best to ignore FE.

monk
Reply to  nikoB
October 20, 2022 5:45 pm

That is so true that it’s unlikely the blog would gain a wider audience. But I had more selfish motivations in that I just didn’t like reading all the trash when I wanted to go through her comments section. Anyway Mike gave me a good idea to set up an email feed for comments and filter out FE

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 20, 2022 12:43 pm

funny, I never go on there. The Peak Oil group on Facebook is really good. David Casey is a really good moderator. He doesn’t let people get too off track from peak oil, but he allows adjacent conversations like climate change. He also prevents too much stupid political or conspiracy type discussion, so the posts and discussions are really good quality.

monk
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 20, 2022 1:51 pm

You’re not missing that much 🙂

required
required
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 21, 2022 6:04 am

I think it’s highly bimodal. The difference between Dennis and Ron for example is day and night. But it was always like that. The Non-Petroleum thread used to be full of EV and “renewables”. At least there the tone changed there quite a lot in the last few months and years.

jim
jim
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 19, 2022 12:56 pm

I think you might have missed this

” This implies a near-50% fall in the affordability of discretionary (non-essential) products and services, even though top-line economic output is only projected to fall by 8%.”

jim
jim
Reply to  jim
October 19, 2022 1:38 pm

Although i do think that the catabolic collapse model’s ragged stair step decline model is most likely.

And the Europe is in for a major step down down over the next ~3 years and the US major step down is likely by the end of the decade.

scarr0w
scarr0w
October 19, 2022 6:02 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

I only stop by occasionally, so do not know if you’ve discussed this book.

Another perspective on denial, might or might not align with Varki’s insight.

Gaia gardener
Gaia gardener
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 18, 2022 8:08 pm

Western civilisation year 2023 will make all the recent years look like a love-in in the park. We have been warned, now what?

Just be grateful for every day we have, and do the best we can to be kind to everyone we can.

If I can just keep this thought in my immediate consciousness, then I can almost think it’s all going to be okay.

required
required
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 18, 2022 3:10 pm

At the same time Europe is outbidding countries like Pakistan for LNG. Reality tends to be messy.

Peter
Peter
Reply to  Rob Mielcarski
October 23, 2022 8:23 am